DuctTape

I encourage patrol camping over troop camping. 2 vehicles is usually enough for a patrol (6-8 scouts) and gear plus the two adults driving (3 at most). No need for trailer, or plethora of adults. Most locations for awesome trips don't have space for 20 people to camp, many areas do not allow groups sizes that big anyway. The ones that do are car camping sites. Many issues troops have, as referenced in this thread could be mitigated by focusing on patrol camping. Save the troop-centric camping for the camporees, etc... There are many other benefits as well. For example, Imagine a patrol trip with only 2 adults, the SM and a parent. The SM can use that time to train the parent. A different patrol goes to a completely different location and has 2 ASMs and a parent on their campout. Again, the parent learns from the ASMs.

I, too, learned to cook b/c of scouts. When one is able to make pancakes, etc... on an open fire a stove is child's play. I still like to experiment with cooking. My wife sometimes rolls her eyes and says, just follow the recipe. Iv have a campsite which I use for campfire cooking. Made dinner out there last night actually. Also like the chef, we had fun experimenting. Instead of pineapple cake, we did something similar using fruit coctail. Not sure why anymore, but we always had a can of fruit coctail on every trip, and Tang.

I am not sure (likely not) whether some of the books in my collection were commissioned by bsa. But both of them are how Stosh describes. "Campfires of the Wolf Patrol" 1913 by Captain Alan Douglas "Black Wolf Pack" 1922 Daniel Beard also in my collection: " The Boy Scout Hike Book" and "The Boy Scout Camp Book" by Edward Cave. These were published in the teens, many years before the Fieldbook's publication.

Thanks. I found that icon a few hours later.

Great discussion. My immediate addition is to clarify the usage of the term "quality control". It seems many are using as a descriptor of a method to maximize the quality of the program. While I agree with that goal, the term "quality control" is not appropriate. Quality control is defined as maintaining standards by testing samples to ensure outputs are within operating parameters. Excellent quality control is not equivalent to high quality. An example of a business which has excellent quality control is McDonalds. The output of their food and service is designed and maintained to fit within specific parameters. One can expect almost the exact food and experience every time, that is High quality control. However one would not mistake McDonalds food to be of high quality. Now back to the real discussion on how to improve quality.

IIRC the congressional charter states something along the lines of "in perpetuity", while unit charters are "annual". Of course I could be wrong.

Thanks Sentinel. I found it. Icons are replacing words so it takes some getting used to.

if someone is able to point me to where "new posts" exist in mobile version I would be grateful. To view desktop version, there is a setting in your mobile browser to do that. Unless a way to see new posts is found, the desktop version is better.

Peaceful expression and civil disobedience are not equivalent, but nor are they mutually exclusive either.

This goes back to the earlier discussion over troop by-laws. No matter how well intended a law may be (or appear), there are situations or conditions in which the moral choice is to disobey the law. However blatant disregard without a fundamental ethical principle is immoral.

Camping on private property offers opportunities. Ask the landowner. Sometimes digging out the debris in a culvert, or moving cut limbs from a felled tree. It is also a fantastic opportunity for the scouts to call the landowner to ask for permission. These are the building blocks which a life scout will use when their eagle project comes around. The EP should not be the first time a scout calls an adult to ask how he can be of service.

Barry, I do not disagree. However often the little cheats end up becoming the gospel to be followed instead of allowing for the struggle to be experienced and learning to take place. Many of the "rules" are reactions to an inconvenience or the struggle we use as a learning opportunity. These reactionary rules are what subvert the mission.

The problem with by-laws is they subvert the mission of BSA. "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." By-laws subvert the mission because instead of utilizing the methods of BSA to accomplish the mission, the by-laws become the "authority to be followed without question". With these rules, it disallows anyone from making an ethical choice, instead they are complying with authority. As Stosh stated earlier, they should be making the right choice all of the time by using the oath and law as a guide. That is the goal. Rules to be followed take away choice.

As an aside, I have not seen the film Gunga Din in many years, and it has been even longer since I read any Kipling whatsoever. It saddens me when I reference it, and no one knows what the heck I am talking about, yet they get the Adam Sandler, Waterboy references. Anyway, thanks Stosh for reminding me about a great poem and film, and know that at least I got the reference.

If you do go this route, I would recommend only partial scholarships (generally). This is so the attendee/recipient has some "skin in the game". I wrote generally, to allow *you* to make exceptions. Another thought is to have it be a reimbursement scholarship after "completion".

I don't think it was meant to be almost the polar opposite though. At one time the dens operated like patrols with the den leader as the patrol leader. There were no "parent sign-offs" on requirements. Activities were done as a den, and awards, arrowheads, etc... were earned as a cub scout not done at home with mommy or daddy. Pack activities were limited to only a few a year, pinewood derby, and blue&gold were the only ones I even recollect as a kid except for the pack campouts which were really den campouts with dozens of other dens around. I think the idea behind cubs was worthy as a growth step for boys to become Boy Scouts, but along the way it has morphed into something so different that in many cases is an obstacle to becoming a boy scout.

You have recieved very good advice thus far. I only wanted to comment as to some of the rationale. The age/grade joining requirements for Boy Scouts are less for those those who have earned arrow of light. The assumption is that by earning that award, they have demonstrated their readiness at a younger age. Thus if they have not earned the award, they need to wait to join until they are "age-grade ready". Of course the assumption that those who earned AoL are ready is not always true either.

I disagree with the conclusion. I have seen more than my fair share of leaders with scouting experience, some even eagle who do not provide a quality program. They are mostly adult led. I have seen just as many leaders with zero scout experience learn quickly what a quality program is supposed to be and then help deliver it. Thus I do not agree that just having scouting experience yields a quality program. Green bar bill, james west, daniel beard, and edward cave were not boy scouts in their youth.

As a current school board trustee, the idea that the taxpayer has no say is also incorrect. As an elected trustee, their voice is carried through mine. Second, all budgets are voted upon by the community... the only budget anyone gets to vote on, and thirdly the community gets a direct voice by participating in the community forums, and committees which put the budget together. When it comes to school taxes and budget, the taxpayer has a greater voice than they do compared to just about every other governmental agency.

I have no issue with a facemask or earplugs, etc... However if one needs a facemask for the swim test, then it follows that the mask must be worn all the time whenever "pass the swim test" is a requisite.

The BSA used to have filmstrips as part of its training materials. I wonder if any of those are still available to be used as a source to create a skit or presentation.

Another piece to the polling question is potential scouts. To make my point at the patrol level, if the PL only asks his members on the campout about said campout that only gives him the opinion of those who went. If he ignores the opinion of those who did not attend, he might not have the best information for what to do differently (if anything) the next time. While I agree with some others who lament for the old days, what changed was the program at the unit level, and for the most part it was by adults who grew up as scouts in the 50s and 60s, many of them moved away from the patrol method. It had little to do with membership changes, it was a move towards adult led, advancement oriented scouting. The membership issues which arose were because adults' influences, not the scouts. I had patrol mates who were gay way back when, none of us cared. We focused on camping and having fun. We also did not care what religion they followed, if any. The practical religion of scouts was evidenced by us following the oath and law, doing a good turn daily, being prepared to do the right thing all of the time regardless of the consequences. Adults need to focus on program, all the other stuff is a distraction.

Over time the adults work their way farther and farther away from the entire process (planning and execution) to a place where the boy leaders are doing it all. Like teaching a young child to ride a bike. Start by holding on to the seat and walking with them, every once in a while remove your hand to see if they have it. Eventually you are walking next to them without touching the seat at all, then you stop walking beside them and they are now ready to ride on their own. While planning and implementing an outing is more complex, the basic idea remains the same. Incrementally let go as they demonstrate competence at each level.

I do not understand your reply to my point that there are very many women who actively engage in outdoor activities such as hiking, camping and backpacking.

In my local hiking club, there are just as many(if not more) 30-50 year old women as there are men. On my non-scouting hackpacking trips, I usually have more women than men join me. The trip coordinator for another backpacking club I belong to is a woman. I get just as many groans and excuses from dads as I do moms. The men have no monopoly on being lazy and out of shape.