DuctTape

With 35-40 kids, and ten adults/drivers, why all going to same location? Sounds like each patrol could have a completely different adventure. 5 patrols each with 2 adults to be g2ss compliant.

Presence on a trip, or in immediate vicinity of a parent does change the dynamic. As does presence of any adult. This is why the 100yd distance is so important as a stepping stone to independence of the patrol. Which leads to patrol hikes without adults present and eventually fully independent scouts ready to be adults themselves. The growth opportunities for the scouts should always be in the forefront of the scouters (and parents) mind as well as the obstacles we put in place (inadvertently) which have the effect of hindering that growth. Awareness of the growth opportunities as well as the choices we make which lead to being obstacles help us make better choices to help the scouts grow. Often we can justify a choice which hinders the opportunity for growth. I submit we should have not just any reason, but that reason should be compelling to a greater interest of the scout(s). We should step in/out as needed with the goal of stepping out and back ,further and further to allow for the scout to become independent and be able to "do things for themselves and others".

I can understand the frustration some feel when they witness a boy completing the requirements "at the bare minimum" or "with minimal effort". I think for most it comes from the desire to want the best for the boy. Some see the a boy who completes the reqs with minimal effort as cheating himself out of what he could achieve. We are scouters because we believe in the boys and their potential, so I can understand the frustration. The boy's pride in their own achievements is typically proportional to their efforts. That said, I think all we can do is model, encourage, and mentor. The cub scouts are "to do their best" and that is the requirement. The boy scout has a minimum metric to achieve but we should still be encouragong them to do their best. Not because it is necessary for sifn-offs, but because they will feel more proud of their accomplishments. Cubs leaders can help with this by not just signing off on the best-try, but also making sure it was their best, and focusing the boy to reflect on their pride of success based on their effort.

I agree with ParkMan. I would also recommend getting some key folks as "vocal allies" who not just support the vision, but understand it as well. This way after you present the vision to others they are able to take point on promoting it. To affect a significant change like this you should understand the different factions and how to deal with them. There are more, and subsets but in general: 1. Allies-those who agree and understand. 2. Middlers-those who can be persuaded. 3. GoAlongs- those who dont really care one way or another. 4. Resistors-those who will fight the change.

I think CP's point, and please correct me if I am in error, was that the ISP did not force a quality outdoor program to become inferior and that the rank requirements in some aspects were significantly more difficult that present. Also the skill award concept was a positive step. I also recall there was a minimum time requirement at each rank; eg. 2 months as a tenderfoot (I could have the time wrong). The ISP had issues, the present system has issues. In the end it is up to the local unit to provide a robust program. I do not think the ISP prohibited that, and in some ways might have helped with the requirements, skill awards, growth conference, etc... It may have been possible for a scout to advance bypassing the traditional outdoor skills, but in my council I saw a more robust outdoor program then, compared to now. At present, in many troops the outdoor skills are done at the bare minimum; car camping only, propane stoves as primary (fires, and woods tools are one and done requirements). Advancement seems to have gone the way of cub scouts where that is the goal of each activity to "get things signed off". While I agree that many appear to have voted with their feet at many junctions in Scouting history, without a substantial data set of exit interviews we cannot know for certain the primary reason.

Summer camp is a great place to do the observations requirements.

to the question of where would they learn all the stuff if all they did was go camping, hiking, fishing, etc... I would answer that those activities are where they learn that stuff. To go on a grander adventure and have more fun requires learning how to use a map & compass, eating requires learning how to light a fire and cook over it, packing appropriately, etc... Just about all the requirements for T-FC are accomplished just by camping, hiking, etc... with your buddies. Advancement isn't something separate from those activities, it IS those activities.

I don't think the negativity towards mbs and rank is so much about an inherent displeasure with advancement as a method. I know for me, the issue is the method of advancement has often become the mission and aim. Mbs are great, when done properly. Mb colleges, and pencil whipping requirements are a result of adult failure to distinguish between the method and the mission. Boys who get signed off for showing up to a class lose out on the purpose of the mb as a method. When the focus of meetings, campouts, summer camp shifts to be exclusively about advancement, the purpose of scouting is ignored and ultimately the boys lose out on the opportunity which could be realized through advancement as a method, and not the goal. Eliminating advancement is not the solution. Done properly, it is one of the methods to achieve the aims of scouting. If not done properly it the aims might never be achieved. That is the source of the negativity.

Most good summer camps need to be a few hours away to provide the necessary woods, lakes, etc...

Since summer camp is not supposed to be merit badge camp; have fun. Camp and cook with your mates. Use the skills gained through scouting to have adventures. Go canoeing, fishing, hiking, mountain bike riding. Take an overnight (or 2) trip to a primitive campsite at a different location in camp. Backpack, or canoe to it, fashion a tripod over your fire to help with cooking. Catch, clean and cook fish for dinner. Sit around rhe fire jawing while twisting bark fibers into natural twine. Look at this as an opportunity to do real summer camp, not summer scout school.

I still do some leathercraft. Not so much the art, but more functional. Just this year I have made sheaths for knives and masks for axes. I would agree that many probably dont use leather in everyday life, but that is true for most mbs. Most people don't canoe in everyday life or play the bugle, or... Interestingly, I dont ever use paracord as other cordage is much better suited for practical applications. The craft use of paracord for survival bracelets may be fun and a current trend, but in general those arent used in everyday life, or even in any outdoors activities. IMO they are just a current fad.

David might have been referring to current maritime law which I was not sure if I remembered correctly. If so, thank you David for the clarification.

Re: private ships with cannons. At the time privateers were issued letters of marque (as permitted in the Constitution) to act on behalf of the us govt to attack and seize foreign ships which otherwise would be considered piracy under maritime law. The letters of marque legitimized the privateers as de facto navy ships. IIRC, current international maritime law prohibits issuance of letters of marque in the current times.

or it could be woven into the basketry mb as an additional (or optional) requirement.

in regards to the comparison to the 1st amendment... it is well regarded, understood and supported by SC decisions that some limits are allowed for the 1st.

I always thought the change was to ensure youth protection guidelines were still followed; no more, no less. Still the Life Scout's responsibility for the project. But an adult cannot allow scouts to use chainsaws and just say, "it isn't a troop activity".

and don't allow them to join a troop at a younger age just because they have aol. 11 y/o or completed 5th grade.

The issue with summer camps changing program... I hope so. Most camp programs are merit badge factories with youths actung as mb counselors. The boys have lost out on a real camp experience long before the idea of having girls as members. Let's not pretend that all is perfect and the change to allow girls in the program will weaken it. The loss of the patrol method, mb factories, eagle mills are well entrenched in the current paradigm. We have had a far from perfect program for many years. It wasn't the gays, girls or godless that did that.

We do. The fact some scouts are home-schooled doesn't influence anything as a result. We have public school scouts, and private school scouts too. One could not tell them apart. The schooling choice of the parents has no apparent influence.

as far as parent roles in youth baseball, just as in scouts there are a ton of other roles besides coach (SM), asst coaches (ASMs). In baseball, parents help by planning and organizing the opening day parade, post-game treats, end-of-season banquets, etc... Besides the named roles in any youth activity, there are many other un-named roles which enhance the program for the youth and/or provide the ligistical support for the named roles.

I remember when I found my 1st edition handbook at an estate sale for 50cents. Well worn. I imagined the boy carried it with him on many adventures. He had written his name and age inside. As well as his SM and Patrol leader. I also did some sleuthing and found out he was born in 1898 and died in the 50's ( I cannot recall the exact year). My collection of old books is not very large, but this one is my favorite as because I have the boy's name. It makes it more real to me.

Far too often people only listen enough to figure out how to respond instead of listening to understand the perspective of others. This is not limited to one side or the other.

My father lives in Germany and over there he says the germans watch reruns of Hogans Heroes and find it hilarious. They are also very ashamed of allowing the fascist regime to take control by not standing up out of fear.

I have some old versions of Boys Life which had patterns and directions for making your own tent. Of course if mom is sewing on their patches, then this would be a stretch. So much for boys learning to do on their own.