DuctTape

or if the scout were a Jehovas Witness whereby their religious doctrine prohibits such "pledges", or a multitude of other reasons.

IIRC, one of the reasons for the BOR back in the really old days was for boys to gain "interview experience" for when they were job seeking. To help them become comfortable with strangers asking them questions about their experience, and accomplishments.

I do not disagree. Reading your other post about how you train is excellent. However, I still maintain that using the term "adult led" is wrong, especially when linked to "boy run" as it makes a specific distinction that the youth are NOT to lead... that is the adults job. I like the final quote you posted above.

How? if the adults are leading then by definition the youth are following. https://scoutmastercg.com/where-is-it-written-that-troops-are-boy-led/

Welcome to the forum. I like your spirit.

The only big issue for me is the focus on advancement as the goal instead of a method. This is my beef with any of these events whether it in mB college, etc... Instead, imagine an event with scouting activities whereby participating in the adventure has the secondary result of fulfilling requirements for mBs and/or ranks. No classes, but adventure. Imagine a camporee where a telescope is available and after campfire, scouts have the opportunity to use it. An older scout shows a few how to locate and identify planets, nebulae or the moons of jupiter. Among a few other things. At the end, can you hear the older scout saying, "hey I did 3 requirements for the astronomy merit badge tonight" and the younger scout saying, "really? that was fun, maybe I should do astronomy mB too". IMO, that is how advancement is used as a method to fulfill the aims.

Has cubs changed that much since I was a kid? Our den meetings had just the two den leaders, no other parents. The same for all other den activities. It was rare for another parent to be around. We did not have that many whole pack meetings that I recall. Pinewood derby, blue&gold, i recall one holiday themed party. Everything else was den based with just the leaders. Perhaps that is why we transitioned to the patrol method so easily.

I also see the "it's adding to the requirements", when disagreeing with any decision or practice of the troop even when it has nothing to do with advancement. I think this is partly due to the (over)emphasis put on advancement. For many, it appears, advancement is the mission instead of a method.

not just stepping in to avoid failure, but even before with forced organization via schedules.

I also agree with you. I will guess that another place we will agree (please correct me if I am mistaken) is the need for all new leaders to be provided excellent training (or refresher) in boy-led-patrol method scouting techniques. As is being mentioned by others, hands-on and doing are the bread and butter of scouting, and training adults in how to allow (implement) the best boy-led-patrol method organization the adults need specifics, not philosophic quotes on flip-charts. The handbooks (boy and adult) used to give examples of situations and how the SM could respond. In trainings, these scenarios should be discussed, acted out, debated. As you mention, even those of us with significant patrol method experience disagree. I believe when we debate the specific action, even if we disagree, especially when we disagree, it strengthens our understanding of the patrol method and the vision of scouting in general. Thus I think this training in boy-led-patrol-method scouting, when done by highly competent people with highly engaging materials and with a focus on the outcome is paramount for scouting regardless of past experience. Unfortunately this training doesn't exist. Some will say "it is embedded in..." which means it is not the focus of the training.

Outdoor experience yes. But not specific to being a scout. As I said, many with scouting experience did not experience the patrol method and try to do scouts in the way they experienced it, which takes a lot of time to retrain them into proper patrol method leaders. Those with outdoor experience and no scouting experience are more willing to learn to implement the patrol method with no need to unlearn bad habits.

And sometimes (often) the prior scouting experience was not really following the bsa methods. I have had the most difficult time with that type of experience, some even eagle scouts but from adult led troop focused plop camping experience. Sometimes it is easier to instruct from a blank slate than having to erase 8 years of anti-boy-led-patrol-method experience.

It took my wife a few years to realize how safe I actually am on my outdoor adventures, even the more "extreme" ones. In the early years, I would tell her the most dangerous part of my trip was the drive to/from the trailhead. I would sometimes text her when I got back to my car with... "out of the woods, back in danger."

So as not not edit my previous response... I want to add the idea in my opinion would require training the OA board by the SM and he provide oversight through SM conferences. The more I think about it, the more I like it to help the boys grow. I see the bigger picture here, and not just a focus on advancement.

As long as it is applied in a manner no different than the SM giving authority to the PL to sign off on the other requirements, I see no problem with it. If a boy is not signed off for tying a square knot by his PL, he can still go to the SM, but the boy will need to demonstrate the skill to the SM. If the boy leaders do not sign off on shows scout spirit, the boy can still go to the SM, but will need to demonstrate he has fulfilled the req. Personally, I find the shows scout spirit to be the most important requirement and sadly it is usually just an automatic sign-off. I think giving this to the boys is a great idea. For sure it has potential for abuse, but with a committee of boy leaders this is reduced, and as I said going to the SM if the boy feels he has shown scout spirit. The disconnect provides an opportunity for growth for all boys involved regardless of the outcome.

I do not think they are adding to the requirements. I appears, and I could be wrong, the SM is empowering the OA scouts to have the sign-off authority for the requirement, "show scout spirit". Looks no different than empowering PL's to sign off on the other skill requirements.

I would argue that the "incorporating the obligation into the program" ends at providing time within the schedule. This is also true for youth. "A scouts own" should be theirs, to do as they believe to be in accordance with their faith. The complaints previously mentioned regarding "a scouts own" are valid and as such demonstrate the (usually adult) defined service was NOT "a scouts own", but instead a group quasi-religious church service which caters to none in an attempt to cater to all.

For hand sewing, do not attempt to push through the entire patch. Instead "catch" a bit of the border only. Imagine sewing "from behind", and as the needle pushes through the shirt fabric, loop it under and through a few threads on the backside of the patch border. this also has the benefit of completely hiding the stiching behind the patch. I guess my method has a real name. Thanks HT.

Encouraging scouts to plan and experience more adventure will help develop not just outdoor ethics, but also outdoor safety. The more we encourage scouts to push to the next level the better. We do a disservice if we hold them back and only allow plop camping and disallow exploration and adventure. While boys are naturally curious and adventuresome, they also have innate fears which help them take small steps instead of too big, but only if it is they who do the planning and execution. IMO, the worst thing bsa has done in the last 20 years is not gays or girls it is the requirement of adults on all campouts and activities.

mine was held together with tape.

While it is technically ok for a scout to "complete all the requirements" before even meeting with the mB counselor, this denies the scout an opportunity to learn from, and grow from an expert in the field and minimizes the benefit gained from the adult association method. I do not condone the SM actions, it appears the SM and TC could use some help in transitioning the scouts to a less advancement is the goal troop. IMO.

I agree that the recourse is for exceptional circumstances. However I disagree that exceptional is synonymous with rare in this usage. I think it meant as "deviating from the norm" or "outside of accepted practices". It should be rare, but if the circumstances move beyond rare it could be an indication that the council is not doing its due diligence in vetting and/or assuring quality of the mB counselors.

In the summer years ago I worked at a camp, and noticed the canopy of a large tree in the woods. It was uniquely "elm" like. It took me a few hours to locate it, and I had the camp director make a call and a rep from the state forestry service stopped by a few weeks later. Samples were collected and it was an American Elm. Spared from the dutch elm disease. Turned out to be in the top 5 largest American Elms in the state.

Get a copy of a 1950s Patrol Leaders Handbook. There are a ton of games and patrol activities. And much better info re: Patrol Method too.

Paying your own way is only one part of being thrifty and I would argue the smallest part. More importantly being thrifty is not needing as much $ in the first place. My first uniform was a hand-me down from the assistant senior patrol leader. Boy's Life used to be chock full of "make your own gear", the older scout books gave instructions how to modify common items to be useful camp gear. Scout camp was a lot cheaper because it was not more than a piece of property with little/no improvements on which the scouts used their scoutcraft, and campcraft skills to "make camp". There are 3 commodities at play here, Time, Talent, and Treasure. The more of one that a scout has, or uses the less of the others. It takes time and talent to do things for oneself which minimizes cost (treasure). The higher the skill (talent) the less time it takes. Currently our culture is focused on buying everything (treasure) immediately with zero effort. One of the original goals of scouting was for boys to learn to do things for themselves and others. Thus I would argue that just buying gear takes away an opportunity for the scout. DIY gear and campcraft skills, etc... are a means to help the scout be able to do for himself and others. If $ is needed, the patrol deciding and executing a fundraiser would be a worthy exercise for the scouts. Imagine how much they would learn organizing a car wash. Just having scouts "work a table" to sell something completely organized by adults takes away opportunities.