DuctTape

since WB has changed to an "intro to leadership training", and is no longer the pinnacle training for those who have already demonstrated a high level of scout skills, scouter skills, etc... why does this basic leadership training have special beads, ceremonies, and other recognitions? Does this not promote the idea that WB is somehow superior to all the other trainings, or at the very least imply the participant has fulfilled a myriad of the other trainings and have significant experience to show as well. If it truly is "just another training", then it should be treated as such. I suppose that is what happens when the pre-requisites and training changed, but the name does not.

MattR's advice is great. The only thing I would add is that after you initially speak to them as a group, with an ASM also there. Then speak to them individually (with an ASM) to truly ascertain remorse etc...

Barry is spot on! The lightest piece of gear is that which isn't packed. His rec's are also why I recommend using backpacks even for car camping instead of dragging an entire trailer and a full patrol box as it provides a minimum baseline. Then a patrol can decide what one or two items they need special for the car camping trip (eg dutch oven). Making the switch from backpacking to car-camping (or canoe) is much easier than the other direction.

My dad did the same. Their "uniform" was an arm-band with the troop # and patrol emblem. His wooden frame was also a camp chair. Making gear is not difficult, but definitely a lost skill for most adults. Easier to sell popcorn and buy the gear some folks believe.

I remember when Boys Life had instructions on how to make gear. The BSA fieldbook (early ones) had some instructions too. Some of our scouts have made the "little dandy" wood stove. a neat metal working project which could be part of that mB.

I almost forgot, " The book of camp lore" by Daniel Carter Beard he also wrote "Shelters Shacks and Shanties" which is awesome.

As shortridge said, "Woodcraft" by Sears. "Camping and Woodcraft" by Horace Kephart "The Boy Scout Hike Book" and "The Boy Scout Camp Book" by Edward Cave "The Campers Handbook" by Thomas Holding "Camp and Trail Methods" by Elmer Kreps many of these can be found digitally.

The idea of going spartan with gear isn't new. The old timers of yesteryear made the same distinction as we do between car camping and backpacking. They just used different terms. The old "trampers" or "pedestrian camping" of yesteryear had different load outs than when base camping. They wrote books about them. Some were incorporated into the Scouting books. In 1884 George Washington Sears wrote: "Go light; the lighter the better so that you have the simplest material for health comfort and enjoyment". Edward Cave wrote a few books for Scouts in the 19-teens as he saw the ideas missing in the early handbooks. I have original copies of these. Much of the same ideas in all the writers of the times. So, lightweight gear loads isn't a new concept. It has just been rediscovered.

with a pack weight that high, it is no wonder you hate it. I am not talking the 70lb pack either. A 50# is way too much. A lighter pack is not about trendy new lightweight gear it is more about not taking stuff. The old timers, Beard, Nessmuk, Kephart, Cave, etc... these guys had light loads and this was over 100 years ago! The secret was knowledge and skill. They also ate well on extended voyages into the backwoods, and so do I. One does not need to forego good eatin' while backpacking and suffer through mediocre fare. The secret is the same; knowledge and skill.

Barry, thank you for your insightful and experienced post. From reading it, I now understand my "disconnect" so much more clearly.

I would add the Patrol Leaders Handbook; an edition printed prior to 1970. They are cheap on ebay, and provide concrete examples for an inexperienced PL to try.

I am not aware of one. At least not officially.

I dont think those who have issues with wB believe the scouters who have taken the course are not dedicated, or do not have the desire to be better scouters. I percieve the issue to stem from the idea that wB training is the pinnacle of all scouter training. For me, this is where the disconnect arises. wB is good training, but it in no way meets the standard that it aspires to be. This is not necessarily the wB program, but the inexperienced folks taking the course. Most just don't have the pre-requisite experience and training to fully benefit from a top level training. Hence my suggestion for training levels. If the concept of levels was too much like "rank" then ditch it. The main point is that too many scouters are basically starting and ending with wB. There needs to be significant training and experience for a scouter leading up to what is claimed to be the pinnacle of training. If not, we are putting the whipped cream and cherry on top of nothing.

I agree that more training, not less is better. However all training should be incremental. At one time, as has been pointed out, WB was for experienced scouters. It was the highest level after having demonstrated skill at the other levels. The last few iterations are using WB as the introductory training. Which is ok, if it is marketed as such and there exists follow-up advanced trainings. However these do not exist. Imagine a scouter training regimen which has levels and required trainings to be completed to advance in each level. They can be called whatever we wish, but for the reqs could be something like: Scouter: YPT Scouter basic: YPT, troop committee training, patrol method module (which should be created) Scouter 2nd class: basic plus SM specific, and IOLS. etc... later levels might have "options" like mB training, or safety afloat, or A-IOLS. Cubbers could have a similar track.

I wonder sometimes if the staff knows this. I have never heard any staff ever state this at any training, except for when I staffed a training and was explicit about adult roles and scout roles.

I hear ya. This might not be for you, but if one considers starting to use the same gear for a backwoods adventure when first starting out near the car it might make the transition much easier as the scouts (more the adults) do not need to relearn how to do "without" a certain item. YMMV.

Some is not even necessary for the first year. A few perhaps not at all. For example, some of the camping items are often used for car camping and might be "nice to have", but are not necessary. Lashing staves? I would suggest gathering some from the woods. In my experience they work better than the purchased ones anyway.

My father always asked, "does she like garlic"?

A tarp can be configured to be an enclosed tent. But, you are correct about first time in Feb.

A start-up can seem daunting, especially with "no patrol gear". I will focus on just this aspect. As it can also provide for the best opportunities for the scouts to learn and grow. Scouts will all need their own personal camping gear anyway. Start there. They can either budget and buy, or DIY. Mess kit, scout knife, utensils, sleeping bag/mat, backpack. Cooking can be done as individuals in a patrol setting. Imagine each scout prepping and cooking their own meal (or as buddies) with their personal mess kits (or aluminum foil) over an open fire. They will learn quickly before they cook for a group. They will also learn who are the best cooks in the patrol, as well as the best fire-makers, etc... For sleeping. The scouts all need their own sleeping bag. Poly tarps are cheap and make great shelters. Buddies learn to pitch them as enclosed shelters, or open. As a patrol, they are all near each other. With multiple pitch styles, they also learn who is best at erecting a tarp shelter and tying knots and lashings. The upfront costs here are minimal for the rope and tarps. For a camping area, the scouts can find a private property owner who is willing to let them camp on his property. The scouts usually offer to do a service project as a trade. Even if it is just picking up trash. Many property owners are extremely happy to accomodate. To start building patrol gear, scouts can raise money through fundraisers, or build their own. For purchasing, I recommend scrounging yard sales for pots, pans, utensils, axes, saws, tents, etc... I have picked up enough gear to outfit full troops for pennies on the dollar. The great thing about the cheap used stuff is that it was cheap. Its ok if it gets wrecked as they are learning to use it.

This underscores the younger generations' point that us older adults really do not understand digital communication and are scared of it. Imagine this scenario, on a campout a group of boys are in their tent having a conversation. BSA HQ changes guidelines to require that an adult stand outside the tent to monitor their conversation. What do you think? The word "ridicululous" comes to mind. In the current teen generation, a group chat on their phone is no different. Monitoring kids conversations whether in person or digitally is ridiculous. The mere fact the rules require the "public" (even with the most gracious interpretation of the word) demonstrates this generation is correct about the digital divide. Heck, the digital chat (even private) is better since a digital record exists. The rule is stupid. And I am being gracious here.

The term Family Scouting was an extremely poor choice by BSA if it truly means what they stated; a one stop shop for families. Obviously family's and scouters are implementing it as "the entire family is together". That is disappointing. BSA has really lost its edge on how to market effectively. Strange how so many come from the business world and are terrible at marketing. Or maybe these ceos and business execs don't really understand the product. It wouldn't be the first time, as it happens in business world a heckuva lot. Yet "we" think we need to pay them 300x + the average employee wage.

The BSA mission is to prepare them to make ethical choices over their lifetime by instilling the values of the oath and law. This does not mean they will always make the best choices while a scout, or even after. But have they learned from poor choices and their consequences, and have they accepted the values in the oath and law as guiding principles to prepare them to make better choices in the future. They will still falter, as humans will do. The question is whether a poor choice is an anomaly or part of a pattern. As far as the boy in the OPs question, the question has been answered by the SM signing off on show scout spirit.

Another option is to use the Lone Scout protocols until a troop is formed.

The answer is neither correct, nor incorrect. It describes the decision. In bold you state it is the "belief" these decisions are best... Those who disagree are pointing out why they disagree with the decision. As someone in leadership of many organizations I can say with certainty it is very common for initial decisions for new ideas to eventually be changed. The question is whether leadership listens to the concerns regarding the initial decision and makes appropriate adjustments, or whether they double-down and insist they are correct. I can say with certainty that the latter does not bode well for the decision makers. I advise the powers that be look into the concerns, and develop an appropriate response which is not telling the stakeholders they are wrong.