DuctTape

Certainly there are some. I posit those are the exceptions and not the rule, at least in my experience. The same is true for many mB counselors outside of the "college/camp" as you state. Hence why I put the blame on council/district as they do not ensure mB counselors are vetted, trained etc... and worse are complicit in organizing events which basically require the ignoring of requirements and deny scouts real opportunities.

Exactly. The mB counselor provides much more than just a "sign-off", the sessions are opportunities for the scout to benefit from the adult association method, to learn from an expert. If the scout is really into the topic and has done so much they are "ready to be signed off" and are, then the scout is denied the opportunity to really benefit from associating with an adult who has a similar passion in the field.

This highlights the failure of councils who see advancement as the goal, not as a method. Yes I blame councils as they push the "mb colleges" and "camp mbs" which do not follow requirements, or even the GTA. These events, a 3-hr sit/stare/signoff are an abomination to both methods. mBs as advancement and the adult association methods go hand-in-hand. As a mB counselor I meet with scouts a minimum of twice. The first is "a scout learns", the second is "the scout is tested". The test does not take place simultaeneously with the learn. Some might query, "but what if the scout already knows it"? In which case I would respond, I have never had a scout know the content at greater depth or have more experience than I. Thus the first meeting still provides some level of learning and the scout benefits also from the adult association. -my2cents

The issues stated are not blue card issues, they are a result of adults doing what the scouts should be doing for themselves. Barry is spot on.

I think the detailed rules were a result of adults not using the method appropriately. I do agree that they have also become a metric of success instead of a means to an end.

I must admit that I used to be much less concerned or even aware of my uniform in the years past. Having read TLS's posts over the years regarding uniforming and insignia has changes my viewpoint. I was not one to knowingly ignore the guide to insignia, I was instead simply non-chalant about it. TLS posts have been enlightening for me. The reminder of the uniform as a method, like advancement etc... really hit home. When we discuss the Patrol Method, we espouse the desire to reach the ideal. We do not chastise when we fall short, but instead recognize where we trying to improve to get closer to the ideal. If someone was to come to this forum and state how they refuse to use the patrol method, we would espouse the virtues of the method and how it, in concert with the other methods, IS Scouting. When discussing advancement as a method, we often use the phrase, "no adding (or subtracting) from the requirements". This protocol can be viewed as one of the base tenets of BSA advancement philosphy. One could also see it as a tenet of all BSA methods. I could go on with the other methods, however my main point is not that one method is more important than the others, nor is one inferior to the others. My point is that all the methods work together to achieve the Aims of Scouting. Willful disregard of the methods in part or whole only makes achieving the goals more difficult. We should strive for the ideal in each of the methods. So thank you to TLS for his years of posting in defense of the uniform as a method. It was not that long ago when I finally saw the light.

The problem IMHO is that the system is backwards. The councils primary function should be to support the units. It appears the council believes the units should support the council. The units primary function is to support the patrols. The patrols primary function is to support each other.

deleted for redundancy

First step in advancement is A Scout Learns. The test of the requirement comes later. However, since it was asked how to test 4b. One possible test could be to do it on a campout where no roads exist in the forest. The scout would still have to use the digital map to determine their route to their desired location. The gps would provide updated current location to help them course correct. The extreme version would be to do this in an area without cell coverage in which case the gps app would only give lat/long and the scout would have to use a pre-downloaded (or paper) map to navigate.

Awesome! The scouts got to experience "camp life" as BP explains is very different from "living under canvas" which he didn't care for. From Aids to Scoutmastership, " Any ass, so to speak, can live under canvas where he is one of a herd with everything done for him;"

is it just me? when someone types FOS, I initially read it as "Full of S..."

As a former cub myself, I can only give you my memories which may or may not help guide you. When I think back I remember next to nothing about pack meetings. I have a vague recollection about a dinner banquet (prob the B&G). All I recall is tables in the gymnasium, some adult stuff and us kids playing afterwards. All my memories are from the den meetings/activities. Even the pack campouts I have no memory except for what we did as a den. My memories of the pinewood derby are of my den working in a basement making our cars together. Are my memories typical? I do not know. But if they are, then as CM, I would focus on helping the den leaders put forth a quality program at the den level and keep the pack stuff at the bare minimum.

IMO, there should not be a "troop policy". The PLC is the decision making body for troop elections (when, where, how, etc..). By having adult policies which the scouts follow denies them the opportunity to play the game of scouts. The decisions regarding election of SPL and other troopwide positions are an example of "a man's game cut down to boy size." Sure it is more efficient and cuts down on adult drama to have troop policy, but why deny the scouts a such an opportunity to learn and grow.

Another variable to consider is what else the scouts want to do. Is it just paddle to make distance everyday, or do they want to go fishing, or do other in camp things, etc...

Scout Handbook for sure. I was (am) ADD before it was a diagnosis. The handbook puts the entire rank on 1 or 2 pages. My SM at each conference would ask me about my goals and we would write expected dates at the top and in margins of the next rank. For example, during 1st class SM confeence we would write at the top of Star page, "goal to achieve around [date]." And similar for mBs.

Yes, however every rank includes show scout spirit. If we (BSA) took that seriously then just like all other requirements which require demonstration/knowledge of increased competency, showing scout spirit could (should?) have an ever increasing threshold for advancement purposes. Unfortunately for most it is just an automatic sign-off devoid of any metric whatsoever. So while I agree with your distinction, it doesn't have to be that way. The method(s) should directly impact the aims. If advancement does not further the aims, then it really isn't a functional method.

How is that troop doing now? "Gunship" still around? Sorry for the thread-drift.

mds3d brings up a good point regarding dues covering the budget. This is an area which the scouts could greatly benefit. The process of budgeting, collecting dues, etc... for the monthly expenditures (including campouts) is such an amazing opportunity for the scouts to learn through experience. Doing this at the patrol level (primarily) is a "man's job cut down to boy size." This is the program of Scouting. Of course it is easier for adults to handle it all with the scouts only part is to say "take it out of my scout account", but this only denies another opportunity for scouts to benefit. Imagine if all the duties presently done by adults were examined critically and compared to what the scouts should be doing how this awareness might generate discussion as to how to provide the scouts a fuller program replete with the growth and learning experiences of Scouting.

I apologize for my comment in the other thread. I did not realize it would have been so bothersome to some. My reasoning for even mentioning it has to do with the military history of its usage. I see a lot of military customs, etc... creeping into the BSA. It isn't the words, but the shifting towards adult run program in a militaryesque efficiency which I fear. This is not just my concern but also that of BP's. He often wrote about the movement using terms such as "a jolly game in the out of doors", and eschewed words and conceps like "half hou drills once a day". He often specifically referenced clearly military terms and ideas as the anti-thesis of the movement. While class a, etc... are just words, they matter. When we begin to use historically military terms, we start the crack which may widen to allow the ideas and practices to change as well. The opposite is also true when one is trying to beneficially change a system; because words matter, changing our vocabulary paves the way to reforming the concepts and practices.

There are no class A or class B uniforms in BSA.

I just posted a query regarding BP's description of the Court of Honor regarding its use in disciplinary matters.

Most (all?) troops utilize the Court of Honor as a ceremony to bestow awards. I am curious if any utilize it as BP described it in Aids to Scoutmastership. To wit, "The Court if Honour, as its name implies, has a rather exceptional mission, such as dealing with cases of discipline and questions of awards." I wonder how many discussions/controversies of this forum in regards to behavior and requirements could be mitigated by incororating BP's COH into the troop structure. Surely this would demonstrate a truly boy-led troop.

I know. I was responding to Barry's attraction to these types of quotes.

Here is one for you in the same vein... "Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly." Will Durant

To be fair to BP he did not say have a big brother relationship, but to guide "in the spirit of".