DuctTape

As a former cub myself, I can only give you my memories which may or may not help guide you. When I think back I remember next to nothing about pack meetings. I have a vague recollection about a dinner banquet (prob the B&G). All I recall is tables in the gymnasium, some adult stuff and us kids playing afterwards. All my memories are from the den meetings/activities. Even the pack campouts I have no memory except for what we did as a den. My memories of the pinewood derby are of my den working in a basement making our cars together. Are my memories typical? I do not know. But if they are, then as CM, I would focus on helping the den leaders put forth a quality program at the den level and keep the pack stuff at the bare minimum.

IMO, there should not be a "troop policy". The PLC is the decision making body for troop elections (when, where, how, etc..). By having adult policies which the scouts follow denies them the opportunity to play the game of scouts. The decisions regarding election of SPL and other troopwide positions are an example of "a man's game cut down to boy size." Sure it is more efficient and cuts down on adult drama to have troop policy, but why deny the scouts a such an opportunity to learn and grow.

Another variable to consider is what else the scouts want to do. Is it just paddle to make distance everyday, or do they want to go fishing, or do other in camp things, etc...

Scout Handbook for sure. I was (am) ADD before it was a diagnosis. The handbook puts the entire rank on 1 or 2 pages. My SM at each conference would ask me about my goals and we would write expected dates at the top and in margins of the next rank. For example, during 1st class SM confeence we would write at the top of Star page, "goal to achieve around [date]." And similar for mBs.

Yes, however every rank includes show scout spirit. If we (BSA) took that seriously then just like all other requirements which require demonstration/knowledge of increased competency, showing scout spirit could (should?) have an ever increasing threshold for advancement purposes. Unfortunately for most it is just an automatic sign-off devoid of any metric whatsoever. So while I agree with your distinction, it doesn't have to be that way. The method(s) should directly impact the aims. If advancement does not further the aims, then it really isn't a functional method.

How is that troop doing now? "Gunship" still around? Sorry for the thread-drift.

mds3d brings up a good point regarding dues covering the budget. This is an area which the scouts could greatly benefit. The process of budgeting, collecting dues, etc... for the monthly expenditures (including campouts) is such an amazing opportunity for the scouts to learn through experience. Doing this at the patrol level (primarily) is a "man's job cut down to boy size." This is the program of Scouting. Of course it is easier for adults to handle it all with the scouts only part is to say "take it out of my scout account", but this only denies another opportunity for scouts to benefit. Imagine if all the duties presently done by adults were examined critically and compared to what the scouts should be doing how this awareness might generate discussion as to how to provide the scouts a fuller program replete with the growth and learning experiences of Scouting.

I apologize for my comment in the other thread. I did not realize it would have been so bothersome to some. My reasoning for even mentioning it has to do with the military history of its usage. I see a lot of military customs, etc... creeping into the BSA. It isn't the words, but the shifting towards adult run program in a militaryesque efficiency which I fear. This is not just my concern but also that of BP's. He often wrote about the movement using terms such as "a jolly game in the out of doors", and eschewed words and conceps like "half hou drills once a day". He often specifically referenced clearly military terms and ideas as the anti-thesis of the movement. While class a, etc... are just words, they matter. When we begin to use historically military terms, we start the crack which may widen to allow the ideas and practices to change as well. The opposite is also true when one is trying to beneficially change a system; because words matter, changing our vocabulary paves the way to reforming the concepts and practices.

There are no class A or class B uniforms in BSA.

I just posted a query regarding BP's description of the Court of Honor regarding its use in disciplinary matters.

Most (all?) troops utilize the Court of Honor as a ceremony to bestow awards. I am curious if any utilize it as BP described it in Aids to Scoutmastership. To wit, "The Court if Honour, as its name implies, has a rather exceptional mission, such as dealing with cases of discipline and questions of awards." I wonder how many discussions/controversies of this forum in regards to behavior and requirements could be mitigated by incororating BP's COH into the troop structure. Surely this would demonstrate a truly boy-led troop.

I know. I was responding to Barry's attraction to these types of quotes.

Here is one for you in the same vein... "Excellence is an art won by training and habituation. We do not act rightly because we have virtue or excellence, but we rather have those because we have acted rightly." Will Durant

To be fair to BP he did not say have a big brother relationship, but to guide "in the spirit of".

From BP's Aids to Scoutmastership p. 3 "The Scoutmaster guides the boy in the spirit of an older brother."

😰

I think partials are a benefit to the scout. Rarely, if ever, should a scout have a blue card completed at the first meeting with the counselor. Partials should be standard operating procedure as a scout works through a mB over the course of time with the counselor.

IMO there is too much focus on mBs as "advancement " and checking off requirements. When in comes to camping mB (and some others) I am a big fan of a scout getting started early on it with a local mB counselor who isn't part of their troop (at present). mBs provide such a unique opportunity and often the opportunities are squandered by scouts primarily (exclusively?) doing them at camp, "colleges" or with troop adults. Camping mB is a great way for a scout to gain insight from a different adult, learn new techniques, share stories and ideas... and all the benefits which are supposed to be derived from the adult association method. Camping (and other mBs) are perfect for scouts to interact and learn from an outside adult expert. Imagine how the patrol and troop would benefit from the scout doing a mB this way.

As you said, homemade boats are not inherently dangerous. No more than a commercially made one. I would hate to see bsa move towards prohibiting homemade "anything" as that is the antithesis of scouts learning to do for themselves and others. The problem was poor planning and execution for such an advanced skill level trip. Gear prohibition is never the solution, training in safe use is.

So much for achieving the principle aims of scouting. I have said before, the the first requirement for all ranks "show scout spirit" is the most important and far too often is simply signed off automatically.

Agree with others as a big NO to Web3. A great resource for a patrol just getting started is the Scout Fieldbook 1944 edition. Patrols can start with "PowWow#1" and progress in order, or bounce around as they see fit.

I always fall back on Baden-Powell's writings that "...to do their duty to God through doing their duty to their neighbor. In helping others in doing daily good turns, and in rescuing those in danger, pluck, self-discipline, unselfishness, chivalry, become acquired, and quickly form part of their character. " Thus I see it can be as simple as "Be Prepared" and "do a good turn daily".

The idea of pack inspection should be standard protocol. Far too often the "present yourself to your leader..." requirement for tenderfoot is a one-and-done (as are too many of the requirements). Every activity, outing etc... should include this at the beginning. When we begin to look at advancement requirements as a method instead of the aim, we begin to provide a scouting experience which mitigates so many problems often experienced and described on the forum and elsewhere.

most of the time excess weight in packs comes from the the things that "weigh nothing". I am not an uberlight backpacker and I do carry some extras, but I found the key is to know exactly (to the tenth of an ounce) what everything weighs and use a list. This almost all but eliminates the "I *might* need this too and it doesn't weigh much". B/c all those add up to a lot. This is also why I suggest all scouts should pack for all trips as though it was for backpacking that way they know what is really necessary.

And this, among other things, is explicit in the Chartering Agreement.