DuctTape

Rarely people step up. Pleas for volunteers being ignored is common in most organizations and systems. Recruiting adults (and scouts) effectively requires personal invitations. All recruitment is Cheap, Easy, Effective... choose only 2.

Yes, delegation is key. So is ongoing mentoring/training of ASMs so that they are not trying to figure ot all out on their own. In another thread I wrote about having ASMs sit in on SM conferences to learn how to do them well. Along with this mentoring, the SM should view his ASMs as his patrol. He should be focused on building up the ASMs much like the PL builds up his patrol mates. I would also encourage the SM to invite a PL (at appropriate times) to sit in and listen to how the SM runs his SM/ASM meetings. This modeling of how to run a productive meeting will help the PL and also demonstrate some engagement strategies. Of course, a follow up discussion with the PL about what he observed and learned.

You have hinted at the main role of the SM/ASM as the solution. SM conferences. For most, these are something done at the end of a rank. They are much more important. SMs should be conferencing with the scouts continuosly. This should almost always be in the form of questioning (Socratic Method) to help the scouts learn and grow. Using your example of type A scouts... The situation should not go on until the Bs leave. Nor should the SM fix it, or attempt to intervene with a large group "talk". The SM needs to conference with the scouts individually (within YPT) to help the scouts learn and grow. The conferences will be different for each kid. Each should conclude with some action step the scout will attempt. Follow-up conferences in this type of situation is necessary to happen sooner than later. With your food spoilage scenario, the SM should conference with the PL before the campout (best is soon after menu is planned) to go over logistics. Again using questioning. "Jimmy, I see you are planning on having bbq chicken. Sounds delish? Does your cook for that meal have much experience cooking chicken?" This begins a dialogue. There should also be a follow up conference before the campout to alleviate any concerns of the SM. And another after the campout to go over the trip as a whole. If that sounds like a ton of conferences, it is. That is why BP suggested small troops to accomplish them all. SM conferences are the bread&butter of the ongoing training via adult association with the scouts. As was mentioned earlier, it is an art. Training of ASMs happens via sitting in (listening/observing only) on the SM have these conferences and then dialogue between SM and ASM to discuss it. Also ASMs gain experience by conducting conferences (with SM listening/observing only), again with follow up dialogue.

The saying in our neck of the woods was, "no scout ever died of starvation on a weekend camping trip".

I have often said (only semi-jokingly) that the demise of kids interpersonal and conflict resolution skills was organized sports. Organized sports have pushed down to the youngest ages and subsumed all sportsplay activities. Prior kids would play kickball, or tag or or street hockey in their neighborhood. They made up games too. When the inevitable conflict, you're out/safe, arose there was no adult making the call and the kids had to figure out a resolution. The most common was "do over". Kids didn't just make this up, they learned that from the older kid who learned from other older kids years before. In organized sports, the adults manage the teams, plan the games, are the umpires/refs managing the game, eliminating kid-kid conflict. The kids just play the game without learning any real life skills. The neighborhood kids playing the games developed a neighborhood culture, invented games, created/re-created teams, solved problems, resolved conflicts... all without adult interference. I opine, adults organizing the kids into "little league for 4 year olds" are the soul-crusher of kids sportsplay activities and thus deny kids the opportunity to learn, grow, resolve. This is also why kids and adults are having an even more difficult time with youth-led and patrol method. The kids do not have the neighborhood sportsplay experiences, and the adults think they must organize and solve everything. This is a (the) problem and the solution is self-evident. Give the kids more opportunity to do the things which require them to make decisions, interact, solve, etc... without having adults meddle. In the scouting world this can result in "lord of the flies" which is ok at first. Immediately after the SM/ASM uses that as an opportunity to train the scout leaders (PLs). Adults training scouts should be following the patrol structure. PLs then train APLs and their patrol. The SM should NOT intervene with a patrol (immediate safety concern notwithstanding) but allow the patrol to operate under the leadership of the PL. After, and ongoing the SM should be interacting with the PL to help him/her learn and grow. A SPL and/or troop guide will likely emerge after a time to alleviate some of the SM tutelage of the PLs.

True. Other adult led programs are fun for kids. But there IS something magical about youth-led. That is it directly leads to the mission of Scouting. Without it, adults make the (majority of) decisions. Scouts cannot learn to make good decisions without having the opportunity to make any decisions. Scouting as youth-led and via the patrol method is the structure which allows scouts to make decisions (including bad ones) and learn from them all while having fun.

Having scouters with youth scouting experience is not always better than zero experience. This is especially true for anyone who was a scout in the last 50 years. I have had more issues with adults who were scouts in troops who had no real patrol method, or scout-led structure. To train these adults means to begin with having them un-learn all the bad habits of their experience. It takes way longer. Those with zero experience are a blank slate to be trained. Both require a willingness to learn, but at least the latter have nothing to undo first.

Years ago I went to our UC (who knows me well) and let him know I was willing to help at the district and council level for training. He was ecstatic I was willing to lend my expertise so he sent it up the chain. About 6 months later I approached him again and said I have not heard anything. He told me he sent my info up the chain and was surprised no one got back to me as they are always looking for trainers. Another 6 months go by... nothing. When I saw our UC again I told him I only volunteer twice and then I stop. If they don't want me, I am happy to volunteer where I am appreciated. A week later the district training chair contacted me and asked if I would help with IOLS. One would think that an organization run mostly by volunteers and predicated on training would jump at the chance to have more people to help with training but apparently that wasn't the case. From talking to others, this is not isolated to our district and council but is rather widespread.

yes.

Welcome. You mentioned being a leader. What is your specific position?

Interesting that the standards apply to all camps with a few carve out exceptions most notably The National Jamboree. The attempt to state the Jambo is subject to more stringent standards is laughable. If that were the case, no need to exclude it.

good ideas. I'd start with some of the old info from the 1950s Patrol Leader Handbook. Also, could it be a communication tool for Patrols Leaders around the country to share ideas and commiserate.

Things have changed in many ways, especially what is legal on the books. What is legal and what is part of the system are two different things. While no longer legal, much has not changed in the system. As just a singular example he consequences of red-lining are still a reality in many places. Entire communities exist as a result of said red-lining and in a lot of cases are unwelcoming to say the least of "others" moving into the neighborhoods. The police still treat minorities in these neighborhoods differently. At the minimum is the assumption they must be from somewhere else and therefore suspect. This is just a simplistic example. While this is a far cry from the lynchings of the past, much of the country still has a long long way to go. While I disagree with the younger generation stating "nothing has changed" I also disagree with the older generation stating words to the effect, "we fixed it years ago, so racism is not systemic". The reality is in middle.

My main concern is that it seems (and I could be misunderstanding your vision) is that the app is an attempt to be a digital mB counselor. My concern is that scouts is already too hyperfocused on advancement to the point it has become the de facto aim in many places. The app, as I see it, would make the problem worse by decreasing time spent with a mB counselor denying the scout the opportunity to grow via the adult association method. With any idea presented in scouts I ask myself "Will this help or hinder us in achieving the aims of scouting?"

True. I have seen some terrible hangs. My ursack has been attacked, still has the teeth marks. When hanging with our 2-tree method, we are significantly higher and farther than the recommended. Skurka when sleeping with his food also hasn't had that method tested by his own metric.

In the Quetico (Canadian side of BWCA) a good single tree is also hard to come by. We use a 2-tree method which does not require that "one perfect branch". Using two trees allows one to attach a 'biner to the center of a rope between the two trees, then hoist to that center well away from branches, trunks etc... Like all outdoors skills, one needs to know how to deal with changing conditions. What works in one area might not work in another.

I don't think it says that at all. Says nothing about" they are there to help if needed". In fact it says to call the mB first. You may be misinterpreting the written process to coincide with your current thinking.

Perhaps a good place to start would be to implement a better process? Oh, and welcome to the forum!

You are correct the pamphlet doesn't have these. That is because those should be part of the mB counselor meetings (yes plural) with the scout. Remember they are a mB "Counselor" not a mB "signeroffer". A mB Counselor should be counseling the scout in these matters with the aims in mind.

I can tell your heart is in the right place. And you are correct that the books and pamphlets are also used the same way, albeit not as good. The problem is the order in the process, including in your "ideal". Going to a leader (whether it is a PL or mB counselor) to get signed off should not be the first and last time the scout speaks with said leader. The scout should NOT be doing all the research, learning etc... on their own and then going to the leader to get signed off. The process should be more like: 1. Scout goes to PL (or mB counselor) first to discuss the requirement(s), what is expected and how to achieve it. (as opposed to the scout "figure out what the reqs are asking".) 2. The Leader then actively engages with the scout to learn, understand and be able to do the skills. The leader will also include his/her experiences with the topic and model integrity and ethical decision making in furtherance of the aims. (as opposed to "decide if the scout learned enough" on his own.) 3. If the requirement(s) are many, or the skill is complex, or there is an activity to now complete, the leader may ask the scout to take the new information or skills and practice/complete activity. 4. Then the scout meets again with the leader to "be tested" on the requirement. The process above might be cycled through multiple times for more extensive mBs A single rank requirement might be accomplished in a single cycle

Personally not a fan. Allow me explain... advancement is a method, not the goal. All of the methods work with each other in furtherance of the aims. As an example, mBs as advancement in concert with adult association provide both the motivation and the medium for the scout to progress towards the aims. Advancement with mBs in absence of true adult association denies the scout the opportunity as promised by scouting. While I applaud your initiative, I do see this as a replacement for a real adult association opportunity. Scouts will simply go to a mB counselor (likely not even qualified in the mB, but approved by council anyway) and get "signed off" without gaining anything from the mB counselor except for a signature. If this resource is needed by the mB counselor, then he/she does not have the requisite knowledge or experience to be the mB counselor.

While it is true the CO decides on the person for leadership position, the CO agreed in Chartering Agreement to follow the BSA rules including the Guide to Advancement. One of the duties of the Troop Committee is ensuring this occurs. Theoretically a CO which willfully disregards the GTA et al is in breach of the Chartering Agreement and could potentially lose their charter. In reality this never happens b/c the council would lose membership numbers and that is the metric used to evaluate.

When I taught woods tools it was immediately before the firebuilding station. I had the participants bring the wood, kindling, etc... they processed from my area to the next.

Moving forward post bankruptcy I can envision all remaining camps being moved into "corporations" , separate from councils legally and functionally.

You bring up some good points. The culminating activity could be a huge benefit as it would provide focus for the patrol. Something which currently is lacking. Not sure if the yearly planning would need to be a part. This could be done as I said by patrol in the first week of the season. As far as how much could the scouts do? I was imagining the scouts meeting significantly more to accomplish their goals. Idea being is hypercompresses a year into a season. They could meet every week day like they do for practice during sports' seasons. I also imagine that the scouts would likely do this for multiple years. The patrol could almost remain "intact" over the years. An entire unit could function under this option. The biggest obstacle I see is getting adults to invest this much time as it requires significantly more than 1hr/week (we all laugh at that now). I don't know if we could get volunteers to give up this much time. Though it could be possible to share the load amongst many adult volunteers.