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melmac65 posted: I made small medicine bags with a silver charm reflecting their personality or character, beads representing earth (brown) and sky (blue), and an owl feather. The outside of the bag was decorated in a Native American pattern with Sharpies. Bags from Tandy/Leather Factor OWl feather? Just simple possesion of a feather from an Owl is a violation of the Endangered Species Act. Ya might want to rethink this one. The year that I was CM I made an arrow for each boy. I cut sucker branches that were shooting up from my garden, attached mallard wing feathers and arrowheads made from black walnut. The boys seemed to like them.

Fleet Manager for a medium sized trucking company.

I prefer to use Firefox but this forum does not disply correctly in Firefox! IMHO this forums software leaves a lot to be desired!

What BB soft ware are you looking at using? Without knowing I can only offer a guess on how much you can turn on and off certain features. If the PM function raises red flags disable it. Whatever software you use I think you should be able to have more than one Admin with access to all information. I've used a bunch of different forum software as a simple member. I've had lengthy conversations with the owner of the site that I am an Admin for and of the three software packages he has worked with vBuletin has the best package as far as being able to set several levels of permissions. As an Admin I can concur with that. I am able to add moderators of individual forums, all forums, or any combination inbetween. I can further add administrators who have even more permissions. There are also differnt levels of user permissions that can be set. Other software packages have fewer options. My Troop is in the process of moving to using Google Groups as our email system of communication. so that when one email is sent it goes to everyone. I also think you have to log into the group to send the email or post. Past messages show up as threaded BB like format. With this route and several different leaders with Admin permissions I do not see how there could ever be any YP problems, but I may be wrong. I would like to echo those that ask why you are thinking of using a forum. Phone calls, Troop and Patrol meetings should be all that is necessary IMHO. It worked for years before Algore invented the internet.

Firekat I must respetively disagree with you. The word Acco posted that you took offense at is not one many would consider offensive. Even if it were I think a reaction to it is over the top. Do you believe that by sheltering children against such things will keep them from using them? I do not. Often it is the reaction to these types of things that do more to cause children to pick up a habit than the habit itself. Take coffee as an example. Give a young child a drink and they will likely not want any more, same with liver and onions. Make a big deal and prevent them form it and they will want it more. Human nature is to want what we do not or can not have; goes back to Eve in the garden. Same with tobacco. I know a fair number of Scouters that trace their scouting back to their youth when it was common place that adults smoked. Most all of these Scouters do not use tobacco. I happen to be the exception; I use smokeless tobacco. MY last Scoutmaster did not use tobacco, and yet I made an informed decision after my 18th birthday to use the product. Much to the irritation to the anti-tobacco NAZIS tobacco remains a legal substance. Is it harmful? Perhaps. Look at staples in the diet of youngsters these days. Salted foods, soft drinks, energy drinks, white bread, and the list could go on and on. Are any of these actually good for them? With the exception of possibly energy drinks in moderation in times of extreme heat or activity no, not a single one. Salt intake can have real problems. Soft drinks not only usually contian caffeene but also contain ingredients that when deliverd to the botteling plant come in a truck with HAZMAT placards, corrosive! Do they hydrate the body, well no they actally lead to dehydration and yet most Scout camps sell them in their trading post. Without even taking about the dangers of sugar and high fruitose corn syrup. White bread; most all of the fiber has been removed from the wheat in processing making it so digestable that our body converts it to sugar very quickly. SO IMHO lets be honest and consistant when dealing with things we put into our bodies that might be harmful. If asked by a youth about tobacco I would honestly tell them to avoid the substance, as I do already with soft drinks, salt, energy drinks , and white bread. BTW my children have been eating crushed wheat bread their entire lives and like it.(This message has been edited by BrotherhoodWWW)

This type of behavior by moderators really bothers me. I for one self moderate prior to clicking on the submit button. I've been involved on several forums for years. One of which I very seldom browse my way to, not because the information is poor quality, not because the forum software is poor (like the software that this forum is using, but that is another topic altogether. vBulletin is much better!), but because the moderation is overbearing, sometimes confrontational and not evenly applied! I currently serve as the Admin on BT3Central.com; a site dedicated to woodworking. I am simply amazed that the members of that site conduct themselves more in line with the ideals of the Scout Oath and Law than some of the posters on this site. We have our share of heated debates. The members mostly do a great job of being respectful of others. The few times that things go astray the moderators work as a team and take necessary action, normally removing the offensive content but leaving the non-offensive content intact. This happens with open communication between forum staff and the poster that posted the offensive content. I for one normally put plenty of thought into what I post. I try my best to respond with honesty and respect of others and their opinions even when I disagree with those opinions. So when a moderator wipes out a topic to which I have posted I tend to question why I even bother to post at all. Just like in life the easy way is often not the best way. At the end of the day it really does come down to a judgment call on the part of the moderator. Just as a Scout is Reverent and respectful of others beliefs IMHO I believe that we as Scouters should be respectful of others in the way they administer the scouting program to their unit(s)! Even though we may not agree with their ways. I would hazzard to guess that there is a very small persentage of the units that operate 100% as the program is prescribed by BSA. How often do we see units that pick one method at the expense of all 7 other methods. How many of us also with serious disagreements with some of BSA policies still try our best to provide the Scouting program for our units. I tend to think most come to this forum to share and learn from other's experiences and to seek encouragement. (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

You might give a call to some other Lodge Cheifs in your section to see what they use. The suggestion to visit with some local natives is a good one. Also if you can find an area museum that has exhibits of native american nature you could find what you are wanting. Take a camera, take lots of pictures, sometimes you can take pictures of pictures for headresses and hair peices. Take notes on the type of materials you see, i.e. leather, cloth, does the cloth resemble blankets? With these things in hand and mind go to a large fabric store and ask for assistance in finding a pattern for shirts/ pants. Breech cloths are pretty straight forward but the sizing may be regional in nature. In the area I lived while a youth the plateau indians (inland pacific NW) used two streched out hands width and the length matched your height. Pants were not normally worn bt leggings were. Shirts were usually made from whatever fabric the indians could find or leather, always tanned natural or white. Footwear was also pretty specific to area groups and differed greatly from what one would find in other regions. Even though headwear was quite different the lodge chose to use a more plains style headdress for the 'mighty cheif' but he other three priciples had more tradional head wear more closely related to our area. In many conversations with native people it was generally learned that there were great differences between individuals in a given group. So some slight variation can still fit right with what locals would have worn. IMHO it is most respectful to actually seek the advice of natives in your area that you will be patterning after. I'm thinking that I have read that somewhere in OA literature.

John-in-KC I have read the documents you linked to, thanks btw for posting those. Perhaps what really happened is that the COR just always agreed with what the committee presented for approval, as a matter of SOP. The end result is that all leaders the unit presented to the CO for approval were approved even though the process may not have been exactly as it should have been. Since the BSA has no control over the inner workings of its chartered partners are they not free to use a process that works for them? The end result being that the CO approves each and every adult application. I'm not trying to advocate that units use the process as I've described. Yet if it is the only way in which a unit gets a charter why not. If the BSA required a strict process, which I'm not sure they could, how many units would fold? How would this serve the youth? My guess is a bunch and with that many youth would not have the opportunity for the program. In my sparsely populated county this would be 2 of 8 that would likely crumble plus 4 of the remaining 6 would be LDS, which IMHO would not likely pick up the youth whose units folded. The OP asked how to find a CO. What I am advocating is keeping the options open. Sometimes that means having to reach a compromise in the process the CO uses to fulfill its obligations. Sometimes by starting with small demands on a CO over time as members of the CO become involved in the unit there can be a shift to the process as it should be.

What I mean specifically is that if the CO so chooses to delegate its responsibility of selecting adult leaders it can. So the committee picks the CM or SM, DL/ ASM and CC and the CO confirms/ agrees to this with a signature on the adult application. In essence the CO just provides a meeting place for the unit. In the short term this might not present any prolems. Long term it may or may not depending on the quality of leaders that sign on board. In the pack that I was involved with that had this arrangement woth our CO the DE was well aware of the arrangement and expressed no problems that he saw with it. It meant another chartered unit in his district. It is likely that if the CO were asked to fullfill the CO agreement to the letter and be an active participant in the Pack they would not have agreed to do so. Faced with the choice of no unit or a CO in name only which would you choose?

Thanks for posting this! I was suprised to read of a troop that seems to not be what one would call an Eagle Factory. The age of these Eagles and the trips/ adventures they have been on sounds like a Troop with an outstanding program. Congrats to that those Scouts, their Troop and its CO!

Having been there once, losing a CO and almost changing with a different unit it is not as difficult as Bob White may make it seem. Regardless of what the charter agreement says the reality is that a unit is a collection of members and adult leaders. If the CO does not wish to be involved as seems to be so often the case then actual, although not legal ownership is with those whom are registered. If a CO does not want to lose the unit that folks want to lose they do get to keep the unit number but I'm thinking only if they can meet the minimun number of youth and adults to register. Ownership of the unit equipment may not be as clear cut and likely would depend on local interpratation. As it seems to be the case with the unit in question I doubt that you will have much problem moving the unit. If the current SM is willing to change the program to make it better I see no reason not to help him move the unit to a CO that would be supportive of the program. Ideally you can find a church or civil organization that wants to pick up the charter and become an engaged partner. Short term you may just be able to find one htat will host the unit until an engaged partner is found. When my son was in Cubs his Pack was chartered by a public school parent group. That group was forced by law to change it's name and about the same time no longer wanted to be a chartering org. We had to get a release from the CO's IH giving up all rights tot he Pack and its equipment. We also had to have the new CO fill out a new unit application. The transition was almost painless. We shose a local church which agreed to the request of the adult leadership at the time that all that was expected was a place to meet. At the time we had several adult leaders whose profession was attorneys of law. They, the law guys had no issues with the back room agreeement between the CO and the adult leaders. Furthermore since one of the lawers was also a member of the church and a deputy county prosecuter his legal opinion was secured by both parties. A CO may if it chooses to let the unit adult leaders fulfill the CO's responsibilities when it comes to running the unit. All that said what Bob White is saying is the ideal and if at all possible really IMHO should be sought. It is for the best of the long term program stability for the unit, district, and council to have engaged CO's. Without engaged CO's units rise and fall with the strength of it's leader. With an engaged CO the quality of unit leadership is likely to be always high, well at least that is the theory. I've not seen it to be true in the real world, but I have seen Troops to rise and fall depending on the ability of the SM.

This is one of those areas that I think National needs to listen to all of the Scouter's opinions. As a parent with life experiences that others are not aware of I have strong feelings about such things. I have a general distrust of any in the medical profession that I have not personally chosen for care. I've had professional's make mistakes with my care everywhere from unnecessary pain to close to death due to failure to treat properly. If my child was on a medication I suspect I would trust him more than some unknown camp employee. As for myself I've ignored the request at the camps I've gone to. I feel strongly enough that if ever pressed I would leave the camp before I would ever give my meds to someone unknown to me. I can handle storing and taking my medications all year long without assistance whether at home or while out camping. There is not anything in the air or water at a Scout Camp that would change that. On the flip side I think it is nice of camps to offer the service to youth whose parents want it. We had a boy in our troop that needed to take a bunch of meds and none of us adults were willing to be involved in that responibility. So bottom line I see this as a service that a camp could and should provide as long as it can be done within the scope of the laws.

Heartfelt thanks to all who responded! Ya'll provided the support I was hoping for. I had a discussion with our SM last evning and he pretty much agrees with me and my direction and wishes me to stay where I am. My son has said he likes where he is. Going through a transitional phase at the unit level is hard and frustrating at times but we are making positive progress. Long term I think we can get our Troop back on track. I've also been recruited by our new DE to be a unit commish. He's also for the first time in years recruited a DC. I see really great things happening in Scouting in my district in the near future.

My son and I crossed over into a Troop last May. In our Pack I had been the Cubmaster plus once a WDL. I had been trained short of WB21 for the position that I was in and once moving to the Troop quickly went through the online training for Troop level positions. At the first committee meeting as I was inquiring what role they would like me to take in the Troop I was asked to be the CC. I of course said sure. Our Troop as far as I can see has a dis-engaged CO. Not an ideal situation but still a workable one as many other units are in this same situation. With this in mind I slowly waded in not trying to make big waves, trying to get the feel for what was going on in the Troop. What I found was not as I thought it should be. No PLC, no Patrol Method, very little outdoor method, way too much Adult driven program, older scouts with a what's a uniform attitude, and a program that seemed to consist of only advancement where the Troop would work on merit bades as a group as their program. This was not the Boy Scout program as it was when I was a boy and is not the "program" as the BSA provides today. I just had to do what I could to help change the direction of this Troop. I had many long talks with key players in the Troop. I thought we were all on the same page. What I was seeing was not what I wanted my son to be involved in and I also knew from past experiences that all of the boys would get so much more out of the program if things were changed to a more balanced program. I formulated my action plan for how to turn things around. It included having a structured Troop Committee composed of those that really wanted to be there. It has become appearent that my insistance on this has created plenty of hard feelings to develop in our Troop among some of the parents. I have simply asked that those wishing to serve on the committee ask to do so, become traind, and if they are going to be in direct contact with the youth membership then they should very seriously consider buying a uniform. I also stated that those not willing to be on the committee should still feel free to add their input but would need to speak to me to get their concern on the adgenda. Perhaps it was delivery of this message that others were angered by. Fast forward to today. Many of the other committee members feel we need to ask the parents if they want to change our committee to an informal one, have a joint parent/ committee meeting where eveyone's input is welcome. They believe that if there is a structured committee then there will be an us vs them division in the Troop. I'm starting to feel and think that I'm the problem rather than the solution. What I'm doing does not seem to be working, although I think the Troop is moving in a positive direction. We have a working PLC, we are becoming more boy led, I have recruited a dad to become an ASM and everyone seems to be happy with him. I am seriously considering resigning or resigning and moving to a different Troop. I will be discussing this with our SM. Is it time to step down and aside? I am struggling on the best course of action.

I don't have a link for you but construction can be rather simple. Two 2"x8"x8,10,12' for the top two 2"x6"x needed height - 1.75" with the bottom inside corner clipped at a 45 angle, an apron made from 1"x4" pine and a few cross pieces made from 2"x4" or 2"x6" With those held on with carriage bolts.

In my former Pack we charged $25.00 per year period. Boy's Life was extra. With this and Popcorn sales we sent every boy to resident camp that wanted to go and on richer years we also had two or more other Pack outings. One Year we went to a lock-in at the Seattle Science Center, had a sledding weekend family outing at a local lodge, plus payed for all awards and did not have to charge much for a B&G catered dinner.

"The candidates coming into the OA are definately older than they were under the old policy, but that probably isn't a bad thing." willhi1979 I am not convinced of that! It might be so in your Lodge but I am guessing that in my lodge the average age has decreased. I think anything the SM does for one candidate, even a SN scout, that he does not do for all other candidates would constitute campagining which should not be allowed. If the scouts fail to elect a great candidate so be it. That is simply the way it is. It has nothing to do with fairness. If fairness was the primary reason for any one candidate receiving a vote then I'm doubtful that anyone would get a second chance.

"Do we really need a password for this area? Eamonn " Simple answer; Yes! Unless you feel like editing out all past topics that should not be viewed by those whom are not members.

Offhand I know of one parent in our Troop that has this over her son(s)head. I do not think it is the right thing to do nor do I think it is fair to either the Scout or the rest of the troop. We also have a few scouts involved that only seem to be there because their parents want them to get their Eagle. IMHO I think parents efforts would be better spent encouraging their son to demonstrate Scout Spirit with an emphasis on learning the value of servant leadership.

Wow! Took me two seperate days and part of one evening to read the whole topic. IMHO Mormons are not Christians by the difinition that I use. My vote in the primary will not be based on a candidates faith, although I would not vote for Romney even if he were not a Mormon. In the general election if the choice is Romney v any dem I'll support Romney. I have hopes that Sen Fred will gain in the polls. I keep hoping that Newt jumps in the race. I for one have rather strong mixed feelings about some of what the LDS Church have done to Scouting over the years. I've met many a Scouter that would have been just as committed if they were not LDS. I have also met many a Scouter that should have taken up golf instead and they were not LDS. I grew up with a next door neighbor that was a Mormon bishop. Nice folks but different. I did some research back while in college and as a member of an evangelical christian fellowship about other faiths. My findings when it came to Mormonism were disturbing at best. The Mormons had their own exhibit at World's Fair and Expo '74 in Spokane, WA and told the story of their faith, interesting but not very convincing to me. I learned that the Mormon's god changed his mind about polygamy at the same time Utah wanted to become a state. I've worked for a company that was owned by Mormon's and have know other Mormon businessmen and they just have not been as Christian as Christians. That said I do not judge other faiths by the faithful as we all are fallable humans. There does seem to be patterns that I have observed of Mormons that are troubling and disturbing.

Wow! I must be in the minority. I like the colorful CSP and highly colorful OA Lodge Flaps. I'd like to see a change back to the collarless shirts of the 70's. The change in colors of the unit numerals seems OK to me. A pocket on the sleeve seems not exactly useful. Bellows pocket on shirt is also IMHO not really usefull. I've not purchased the switchback pants and likely would find a zipper that lands above the knee very uncomfortable while sitting down. Nylon as a pants fabric seems to me to leave a bunch to be desired and wothless for wet weather. Cotton denim or even canvas can be treated to be waterproof. Either seems to me to be a better choice. All that said, when and if a new uniform comes out I will likely buy a new one but I will also keep wearing the current one. If my DE follows through with his plan to recruit me to be a unit commish. then I will need an additional uniform anyway. Uniform is a method and IMHO Adult leaders should toe the line and set the example. By buying a new one and also continuing the old one as long as it is servicable this can demonstrate to the youth both the method and Thrifty.

My district just had a staff change. The former DE gave me a centennial recruiter patch and the new DE gave me another. I told the new dE that I already had one and he said take another as we want to be sure that you have them on hand. I've told the Scouts about the program and I believe that I will be handing one out at our next meeting. It's a pretty sharp looking patch! I'm hoping that as I give a few out the Scouts will get the idea and start bringing their friends. I think this patch might only be available to Boy Scouts but you could try the same thing with Cubs.

My district just had a staff change. The former DE gave me a centennial recruiter patch and the new DE gave me another. I told the new dE that I already had one and he said take another as we want to be sure that you have them on hand. I've told the Scouts about the program and I believe that I will be handing one out at our next meeting. It's a pretty sharp looking patch! I'm hoping that as I give a few out the Scouts will get the idea and start bringing their friends.

Beavah, Thanks for the insight. Lots of great questions that I am in the process of finding the answers to. I''m the CC in my son''s troop and we have only been with this unit since June so my ability to change things are rather limited. I have found that I get desired results by working behind the scenes suggesting things to the SM and ASM''s. Past that I''m really powerless. Our unit is facing many challenges. It appears that it has been down the adult led trail and we are trying to correct that. We do not even have a functioning PLC. The older scouts with leadership postions have never even heard of it. What I am hoping for is responses to the direct questions in my OP. I''m sure there are units out there that use the "modern" method with success. I''d really like real world input form those that have tried this format both pro and con. I am hoping to help my unit move in a positive direction and am open to ideas that have worked for others. Sorry for my non-understanding of Varsity Scouts. I was not trying to focus on this only. Years ago there was a Leadership Corps. Now it seems there is not. Some units are forming Venture Patrols. Whatever the name is matters little, these folks are using what I''m calling the "modern" patrol.

For this discussion let first agree on two terms; "traditional" patrol = mixed ages of youth in each patrol, "modern" patrol = patrol division by age groups i.e. NSP plus older scout patrols and maybe varsity/ venturing patrol(s). Which type does your unit use and why? Have you done the other way? Any regrets or problems with they way it works for your unit? The reason I''m asking is I''ve always been involved in Troops using the "traditional" patrol, if it truely is traditional or not is not the point. I have seen this work in the past and this is what my unit is currently using but I''m starting to have doubts as if it is the best course to take. The younger scouts seem likely to get short changed when it comes to their needs to satisfy advancement requirements. The older Scouts in our troop do not seem to be as good at mentoring the younger Scouts as I would have hoped. I''ve read in other topics where some (well at least Lisabob''s) units have moved away from the "modern" format. Anyone actually using a varsity patrol?