BrotherhoodWWW

My Troop's CO is a Knights of Columbus. They and the local Catholic Church provide meeting space and payment of the recharter fee only. They at one time provided storage space for some gear plus one single bulletin board. We've since moved to a church about a block away for both meeting space and storage as they are a community church that no longer has a paid minister. The second church allows us full access to a 3 Bdrm house and detached garage along with several sizable cash donations over the course of the year. Last year around re-charter time I attempted contacting our COR to set up a face to face meeting with myself (CC) and our Scoutmaster. He turned us down! To give him fair credit he is a US Postman and that is a rather busy time of year for him. Most all of the units I have been personally involved with have been of the type just like our Troop. A detached CO that only provides meeting space and sometimes some storage. That said if CO's are strong and take seriously their responsibilities then the movement would be stronger.

Not to hijack this topic but I must disagree with John-in-KC. In the guide to inductions it states that ceremony teams should if at all possible use regalia as would be worn by local peoples. I conclude by this that if any dancing also occurs then it should also be of a local type. More on point I was involved in a dance team as a youth. I was a member of a Lodge centered around a city of 200,000, Spokane, Wa, and we had about 8 active members on the team. We had monthly meetings. At each meeting we not only practiced and learned dances but had a regalia workshop. While I was DT Cheif we took first at Section W-C-3 Conclave. I think the secret of our success was a really good advisor with a passion for dancing. It also helped that several of the members were also popular members of our Council's summer camp staff.

I bet you are proud! He will have memories to last a lifetime. This has to be one of the best things the OA has ever done. All those Arrowmen involved are going to great strides to actually live the principals of our Order.

FireKat, I think both you and the new Ordeal member should complain to The Supreme Cheif of the Fire (Scout Exec, the Lodge Staff advisor, Lodge Advisor, and Lodge Cheif! IMHO it is a great dis-service to canidates to water down their Ordeal experience. Properly done the Ordeal can be an earth shattering event that an Arrowman will remember for his or her (in the case of an adult candidate) life.

Im involved because I believe in the value of the progam for today's youth. If my son would not have become involved 5 years ago I probabaly would not be today. Now that I am involved I'll likely stay involved until my youngest ages out and he is only 2.5 y.o. now, assuming he wants to participate. I was involved as a youth and partway through my college years. I was honored by my fellow Scouts in 1980 and underwent my Ordeal. I took the Obligation I made to heart and stayed for the benefit of others for years after. I think the Ideals of Scouting do far more than any other youth organization to shape our citizens of tomorrow.

"My bottom line is.. Limiting potential great Scouts from becoming Arrowmen seems to be on the individual Scout in the troop. To counter any election confusion, unethical popularity, favoritism, Could there be anyway that our National OA committee allow even more hard working, positively motivated, cheerful, friendly Scouts which constantly demonstrate Scout Spirit? Could National OA committee look at any future procedures that will allow some great Scouts to become Arrowmen, while not lessening the honor? " Crew21Adv asks. I'm of the thought that opening up the Order to all those eligible that received at least 50% of the votes cast has watered down the Order. Although it is still a great honor to be elected and it does reflect greatly an those elected. Many deserving Scouts will still not be elected for reasons mostly unknown. I have not seen how the last changes have benefitted Lodges, Chapter, or even Troops, as an Arrowman's first obligation is Service to his Unit! Rather I've seen that the Order seems to have lost participation and focus. I do not have the answer. However I doubt that the National OA committee can by simply changing the rules make anything better. Working within the Order at the Unit, Chapter, Lodge and Section levels is where real meaningful change could and should happen. In that order IMHO. It will take effort of Scoutmaster, Unit OA Reps, and Chapter Cheifs and Advisors to educate and validate the honor in the Order.

Crew21Adv says in part "A better question may be. Could the National OA Committee do anything to better allow those deserving Scout to be allowed into the OA? (Like changing the OA election procedures again, like they changed in the 90's). Maybe in the future, those nominated by their Scoutmaster, but not exceeding the popular election, could attend an OA'ish Board of Review. Maybe a committee of Arrowman, Chiefs and Advisors could determine if a hardworking, cheerful worthy Scout, while not elected, is still worthy of becoming an Arrowman. I feel that our goal should not be to prevent popularity, but our goal should be seeing that worthy Scouts do become tomorrows Arrowmen. If that necessitates changing National OA policy." I can not see any reason to ever change the ways in which Arrowmen get elected to such drastic measures. Such a thing would forever change the makeup and lessen the honor IMHO. The view from my seat is that the changes of allowing more to be elected has not made Lodges or the Order any stronger, but I won't go so far as to say that is what has caused them to become weaker. Lodges and the Order have IMHO become much weaker over the years. At our section's conclave we no longer have dance team competitions. At the ceremonies that I have witnessed as an Advisor the CT members do not know their lines as they did when I was a youth member in the early 80's. In the part of my Chapter that I Advise I have gone to great lengths to educate the election team to follow the proceedures. The Ordeals I've been to have done a good job of ensuring that the focus is on the ideals. Our list of service projects is longer than could be reasonably accomplished. The Arrowmen present are cheerful and work together.

"Can you provide some more details? How did the PLC spring it on the troop that they'd be out overnight?" Shortridge asked. The PLC led the troop on a "shortcut" from what I have been told and got "lost" when they announced that they were "lost" and they would need to spend the night. I am not sure at what point they spilled the beans, so to speak, and admitted that the whole thing was carefully planned. At this weeks meeting the Troop spent a fair amount of time discussing the outing; what went wrong, what went right, what they learned. I really wish I could have gone along but I already use all of my vacation time for Scouting, with Wood Badge and Summer Camp, plus leaving work early several times a year for OA functions.

The oldest Scout was 16. Several were 15, most were 11 and 12. Two ASM's participated, one a former Survival trainer for FEMA, US ARMY, now an EMT. NO tents, no sleeping bags, only a day pack with the Ten Essentials plus a few items. Most had a space blanket. Some also had a small tarp. Most brought several layers of clothing as is appropriate for a hike in the Central Washington Cascades at this time of year.

Progress has been made! I'm the CC for my son's troop for the past year. When my son crossed over the troop was adult run with few outings planned. I've gently helped the Scoutmaster change these practices. Last January we actually had a youth leader lock-in where we trained the youth for their positions. At the end of this training we had the youth plan a 6 month schedule of events and monthy themes. The discussion of a hike came up for the month of June as our outdoor event. I suggested to the boys that perhaps they should do an overnight survival hike along with first aid training where the non-leadership only thought they were going on a hike. The boys thought that it was a great idea. They had planned Wilderness Survival as the theme for May. Last Friday they had their hike/ camp out.I was not able to make it but all those that went had a fantastic time. The boys were well prepared. They tackled every challenge presented. Despite making a few bad decisions as far as where to camp for the night and the weather being cold enough to frost all stayed warm and dry. One of the The Raven Patrol Leader faked a sprained ankle. The boys thought he was actually injured. They first tried makeshift crutches and finally ended up making a litter and carried the PL far enough to prove that they could. They learned that grubs taste like nuts. They ate some ants. Once they returned to town. We cooked them a breakfast of scrambled eggs and pancakes. If your Troop has not done an outing like this with proper training and prepardness this can be great fun!

Unless I'm mis-reading the requirements it is Second Class that Scouts must use a map and compass together on a 5 mile hike. First Class only requires a compass orienteering course of at least one mile and the additon of measuring height or width of objects. Most maps have the top of the page representing true north so the left margin will be a N-S line. If you know the declination i.e. 21east (E. Washington years ago) you just set your compass for 339 line up the base of your compass with the left or right edge of the map and turn your body until the needle centers in the compass. One such webpage explains this better and in more detail than I can in a quick forum reply. A simple way of setting up a course is to have the return location the same as the starting point. One could even find the waypoints with a GPS receiver to reduce error. Otherwise just using an unmarked course and measure the error in feet or yards from the target end point.(This message has been edited by brotherhoodwww)(This message has been edited by brotherhoodwww)

Mr. Boyce asks a great question. I often ponder why the cub uniform has remained mostly unchanged and the older program has changed the appearance of the uniform many times. I looked but was unable to find a phot journal of the changes over the years. Is there one online that any are aware of?

This is so sad! This is rather close to where I live; only 4 hours away. The news story IMHO vastly understates the impact our snow pack had on this. Not only did the Cascade mountians receive more than normal snowfall it was record setting. It is still snowing almost weekly in the higher elevations. I wonder how much of a proactive effort the local officials made to warn people of the dangers before this terrible loss. As far as rivers go in this part of the world this river looks pretty tame; at least in the part they were canoeing. Below is a link to a Google satellite image of the section of river. linky

Congratulations to the Eagle and to you for helping him along his trail. We had a great weekend here as well. Spent Friday afternoon until Saturday night at an OA Ordeal at Camp Fife, WA. WE had a unusually small group of candidates but most of the list of tasks were completed much to all of our surprise. If any of ya'll are attending Camp School there next week the adult project was to replace a post and rails on the east balcony of Curtis Gilbert Lodge. Enjoy it! Myself and an ASM from my troop went with our Troop's latest Eagle Scout who underwent his Brotherhood. He was asked on Friday to be the mighty Chief for the Ordeal and considing his lack of prep time did an outstanding job!

Most folks will perform to expectations. With that in mind set the bar high. Jobs that you do not have listed are Pack Trainer, Advancement coordinator, Tiger DL. If he wants to be a TDL and has a son of that age get him trained and turn him loose. A good Tiger Den Leader IMHO is one that is willing and able to facilitate each Tiger Partner sharing in presenting a Den meeting.

Let me preface my reply with my current duties in Scouting. I'm a Troop CC, an OA Ass. Chapter Adv., and a Unit Commish. Two different district level assignments and one unit level assignment. I live in a smaller council in a geographically detached far part of a bigger district. I know a bunch of Scuters and parents that do not like to see FoS happen at courts of honor or blue and gold banquets. This year for my unit's FoS campaign I keep it real low key. I personally spoke with parents and other leaders on a one to one basis and posted a couple of announcements on our unit website. I know of exactly one contribution turned in. The simple fact of the matter is that CoH and B&G are the few times when there is potential to contact most of the parents. I truely wish it were not so. Those of you that do not like to see fundraising and other promotions done at these award ceremonies perhaps you could share your methods to get parents to come to a strickly fundraising function, in a spin off thread of course. I see this as a monkey brige that keeps being traversed. I mostly agree that we need to concentrate and focus our energy on the youth at advancement ceremonies.

In the troop I serve as CC we have several of the hovering type. I think it is mostly a matter of education, although my efforts so far have been fruitless. I went so far as to ask a mother why she is the one sewing on her at the time Star Scout's patches. Her reply was that that is just one of her jobs. I replied "are you going to be there for him when he is moved away and has to do it himself?" Her answer escapes me at the moment.

For Cub Scout age boys and their parents I think this is a great idea but once a boy moves up to Boy Scouts this is exactly the opposite IMHO that needs to happen. Parents need to fade into the background while still being supportive. IMHO the very best Scoutmasters are those without boys in the program. Parents with boys in the program should fill ASM and committee roles.

From the Guide to Safe Scouting: "Except for law enforcement officers required to carry firearms within their jurisdiction, firearms shall not be brought on camping, hiking, backpacking, or other Scouting activities except those specifically planned for target shooting under the supervision of a currently certified BSA or National Rifle Association firearms instructor." I'm thinking that an OA Lodge function falls under the scope of an "other Scouting activity" and since the purpose of the rifles is not target shooting with a certified range officier present then the answer is leave firearms at home. Prior to doing otherwise it would be wise to seek the advice and consent of the Council Executive.

So something that Unit level Scouters should do is detailed in a publication aimed at district and council level Scouters that happen to sit on the Advancement Committee? Am I the only one that thinks this is odd?

acco40 said "A Scout is supposed to be recognized thrice. First, the day he earns rank (after BOR) via an announcement by the troop leadership. At the troop meeting immediately following by way of presenting him his rank patch (give the advancement chair or whomever a chance to go get the patch), and finally at the next COH." I firmly believe that this is the best way of handing out rank advancement. It is not something IIRC that was done when I was a youth but it makes sense. I'm hoping someone can point me to a specific piece of BSA literature that says this. TIA

There are a number of ways that I can think of to identify trees once dead. Some have distintive bark. Most have distintive color of the heart wood i.e. ash is rather light colored, as is maple. Some hardwoods are really dense and heavy like white oak. Some have distintive aroma, like black walnut, color is also a good tell tale sign of walnut. Softwoods (conifiers) also have distintive charcterisitcs. Bark, color and smell. Out here in the wild, wild west we mostly have softwoods. Pines are not the best, most firs are pretty good, some cedars are good for kindling, western larch is the best. In some places that I've camped I've found birch, aspen, alder, and willow. It helps to learn to idetify the live trees as you will find dead trees of the same type close by to compare the bark. You could spend some time in a lumber yard and closely inspect multiple examples of different species by the color, texture and aroma of the heartwood and or sapwood. If you know a woodworker perhaps you could talk him out of labeled scraps. BTW welcome to the cyber roundtable. For cold weather hunting/ camping I have a wood stove heated wall tent. I almost always use softwoods as there is usually not much else available where I go. Contrary to what some say softwoods do burn down to coals and in the chill of the morning I simply have to add a few sticks of kindling and a couple of larger logs and I'm back to being warm and comfortable. It is a matter of timing for the coals; if you wait too long the fire will bund to ashes but so does every single hardwood that I've ever used to fire my wood shop's stove.(This message has been edited by brotherhoodwww)

After expressing my thoughts in an earlier topic to which several replied that my fears were not true I purhased a pair last December. I had to hem mine. It was a simple matter of hemming at the zip off zipper. I've found them to be comfortable so far but far too thin for colder weather. I'll be buying more before the sale is over and will even buy a couple of pair for my son. FWIW I tried mine on in the scout shop and found a pair that fit other than legnth.

Who sits on your boards of review? Are they trained to the standard of http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/trainingmodules/board%20of%20review%20training.aspx I'm the CC of my son's troop. I also have years of experience in Scouting both as a youth, early adulthood and more recent times. Our unit had a problem/ complaint with the way in which a board of review was conducted. As the CC I interviewed all parties involved and discussed needed changes. I went so far as to actually find resouces such as the above web page for all of the adults whom may be asked at some time to sit on a BoR and posted a link on our Troop's group yahoo page. Once again last week we had problems related to a board of review. One of the committee members printed from an unnamed internet source a list of BoR questions which all of the other board members were reading from. This week I sat on a BoR and came up one of my own questions pertaining to how the scout got along with his fellow scouts. The other board members questioned me afterwards showing their apparent non-understanding of the BoR trasining document referenced. Now for my rant: Why is it that well meaning adults even if given the opportunity to become educated about the scouting program or some part thereof refuse to do so? Why do so many choose to reinvent the wheel? What have others in my shoes done in these situations? How do we convince others to attend a training session?

Plenty of good answers so far. I'm not saying this is the "one correct way" but what my troop did this year is myself (CC + OA CA) the Scoutmaster and an ASM made the decision who to nominate. We had two likley adults in which to choose from. Both are currently serving as ASM's. Both had youth in our troop. One had a son that was elected. We choose the other. All three of us are OA members, myself and the ASM were elected as youth and our SM will be sealing his Brotherhood at the Ordeal weekend that the canidate youth of our troop are going to attend. The ASM we nominated had more that we thought could offer the youth involved. He's a Hopi by birth and he is an EMT by trade. You can never have too many medical professionals around and with his resume adding to his current job he is even more of an asset. I would not have brought this decision before our committee as I truely think they might have made their decision based on which deserves to be nominated. Even if the end result might have been the same he would have been nominated for the wrong reasons.