brianbuf

Some one here mentioned corporate sponsors. In England each merit badge has a corporate sponsor. I am not in favor of that approach, but scouting throughout the world is different than it is here, as most of you know. Now about Icons... All joking aside, did anyone read in September Scouter magazine about the cub scout packs using the NASCAR car kits in their recruitment? Those who used NASCAR had enrolment up comapared to those units who did not. NASCAR is resonating with many youth and parent, and I think Scouting was brilliant to hook up with an Icon like NASCAR. The article is excellent and shows that Icons do have some influence. Brian www.savescouting.org

Hey folks, some good and insightful thoughts. Keep it coming. I agree with a ton of the above. A discussion like this is healthy, I think. If I came across as one having all the answers, I apologize... my website has, and says that, it is my opinions based upon my observations and fact gathering. If I had all the answers, I could retire (again) and this time be a lot richer! Some of the answers are here, on this thread, via very insightful posters. Thank you.

I've been at the plate swinging and hitting for weeks now. See the website! It has several of my ideas. Perhaps scouting only needs a "cosmetic" update. I am not in favor of changing the values or lessons... just using a modern approach to reach more kids. Too many folks, when they hear "change scouting" automatically think someone is trying to make it into "a video game" expereince or whatever was just said above. No, don't change scouting... just repackage it in terms and icons that the youth of today can relate to. Just like BP did in his day! He used icons and items from his day to appeal to boys 100 years ago. We should follow his lead and do the same... use icons and items from our day to appeal to boys in our day. Never change the values or lessons to be learned. My 2 cents.

Ranger T, who wants to "turn it into some lame video arcade style game"? Certianly not me. Brian visit www.savescouting.org

Thanks everyone for your continued input.. it is especially refreshing to see new posters... as for a while it was like the same 3 people posting over and over. Since people are asking me questions or commenting on my post, I will once again respond... "You say you have done research yet you quote 2005 membership numbers. What about 2006 the year we are in?" I do have YTD 2006 numbers, emailed me from a good scouter on this forum. Overall the numbers are down another year. Some areas are up, some are way down 30-35%. Nationwide as a whole down. So, ya, I got some facts. It would be great if someone could get us 5 and 10 year numbers. If anyone has them, real numbers, please go to my website and email me from there. Thanks all

BrentAllen, If you have had my fill with my ideas, posts, etc... why are you so obsessed with researching everything that I have posted? Move on to something you like. How about you post something new, refreshing, etc... and people like you can take pot shots at you and your ideas. I will be looking forward to seeing your new posts. Ya, I say I am retired... I stopped working full time and regular several years ago. I do own several businesses and stop in 2-4 hours per week to check the books, chat with some employees, etc. So everyone around me calls me retired (even though I employee quite a few) because I don't go to work very often. My cargo pants were scout green, could not tell much difference from a far except they were very comfortable. And you know what, many at WB said ... wow, those are neat pants... neater than this out of date design! What does it matter to my website, my tickets, etc...if I went to WB as an eager beaver (oops) or out of respect for the wishes of other leaders. What does that matter. I just got a report showing 2006 stats YTD. Yup, over all decline continues... some areas up, some down by 30-35% in a single year... (and you are wasting time tryint to figure out if I say I am retired how can I have employees, gosh, get a life!) Scouting is in trouble and needs to be changed to reach more boys and teach them the values that are timeless. In the mean time, I will try to dodge your attacks. I will just sit back and look for your posts. Something new to say about scouting?

Hey, great thought about more boy input/leadership at that top. Ya, I realize I was going to strike a nerve with some. I would hope that those who view it as "their" program would realize that it is the boys program first. My parents joined the Good Sams club so they could have their own program for adults. Keep up the input... I am learning as we go.

First, great, thought provoking ideas above. Excellent ideas and discussions. This was my goal. I think many of us are learning by bouncing ideas off this board. Most are playing above board here. And I appreciate it. When you are losing the battle over the message, then you start attacking the messanger. Looks like some folks fear they are loosing the battle so they are attacking me personally, which should never ever happen on a scouting board. SHAME ON THEM! Gotta agree, Brians web site is nothing more than a blog gone wild. One would think, since this is a WB ticket item, he would have actually done some research & not just accepting the opinions. Poorly done in my opinion. I wonder about this too. Brian wrote that he's completed all 5 ticket items in four weeks. Now I know one's ticket is a personal thing but I don't quite understand how one can develop a ticket towards ones vision and complete it in four weeks. Is his vision that shallow, or is his ticket just that weak? Or perhaps it contains about as much substance as savescouting.com - not much. This is an attack on me and upon my WB leaders. I spent many hours (being retired) in the 4 weeks doing WB non-stop. But I don't have to answer to you, but to my patrol guide. How dare you attack him, his judgement regarding my tickets, and our WB scoutmaster's ultimate sign off. You are DEAD WRONG about them.. and they signed off on my tickets. Research.. I have ton. And it is growing. Just got some the August membership reports... and for the most part the slide continues. Perhaps thinking all is well is the shallow thinking here. Keep to the thread or leave. Stop attacking the messenger. It is the message that is suppose to be looked at here.

Eagledad, Thanks for the inquiry about who I am, but that is irrelvant to the message. I will tell you I have 4 boys, I was in scouting, I am retired, I am a leader in Venturing, and my name is Brian, and my WB patrol was the Buffalos. Sorry, I am not a buf weightlifter, rather a Buffalo. Not that any of this matters. Just got a membership report for a good leader... 2006 numbers... some units are up, some are down by 30-35%! Am I concerned about Scouting reaching kids, you bet. And yes, keeping the values... that is the whole point of scouting.

A few folks have missed my points completely. Making huge assumptions like those of us who want to modernize scouting want to gut it. Wrong. Look at this line from the last post "Will we ever have a need to cook, be independent, and lead others, you bet ya!" Who said that we want scouting to change from these things? Don't assume. Rather, we want scouting to appeal to more kids without losing the values. As one poster wrote, his words, not mine, scouting needs to be less "DORKY" If you read Scouter this month you might recall that packs that used the NASCAR promotion had an higher enrolment than packs who did not. Many kids and parents think NASCAR is cool, and it attracted the kids. Says right in the magazine. This is a great example of scouting appealing to more kids. Did they stop teaching values, cooking, to be independent, to lead others... no, they did not stop teaching these things. Can Scouting be more modern and still be good, you betcha. then the old program has just sold itself! What, with declining enrolment, troops closing, and magazine subscriptions down 30% (while others are up)... how long are some folks going to be in denial. A few adult leaders should say it like it is: "I like the old program I grew up with regardless if it kills the program or not." How many more losses do we have to have for folks to say... hum, this ain't working... lets try something else. (not change the values but the package). Old program ain't woking! In Utica, NY, enrolment is down 35.2% vs last year alone. Lets wake up.

"I really don't see to many problems" Ding Ding Ding, we have another winner. What more of a decline in scout enrolment do you need? Subscription decrease even more? No, some magazines are up! Several kid ones... this guy with Boys life told me Sports Illustrated for Kids is killing them! No problems huh? Got an extra pair of rose colored glasses? I want this program to be in the lives of my grandkids... and it is dying on the vine. BP would roll over if he saw how out of date it is, because his program was up to the times when he started it... his times. Not 100 years before his time, or even 50. Please remember this is not about the leaders, it is about the boys of today. Too many posts here have forgetton that point. Join the Good Sams if you want something for you. I will work to modernize and improve scouting. And yes, concrete answers are on my site. Thank you and good night.

Pardon me, but I don't think brian has a clue Boy, are there only 3 or 4 posters on this entire site? Seems like you are following me around to every thread, attacking me. The above is below the belt. It seems to me you are a terrible example of the values scouting teaches. Dissagree, yes, but you did not need to personally attack me. You are out of line. I'm curious what icons, characters or other materials B-P used which were based on his time, and are outdated today - the ones that are causing Scouts to drop in droves? All spelled out at www.savescouting.org Our current uniform looks very similar to the Marines, just as B-P's original uniform was similar to their military uniform. This is a joke, right? Neckercheifs, woggles, dangling patches that go over a button, red troop numbers on the arm... sound Marine ish to me. So, what other icons are outdated? Patrol names? This I want to hear. see the website, but bobwhites come to mind. . Please explain how your theory of outdated icons is causing drops elsewhere, but not here. We are using the same uniforms, the same books as everyone else. And we have more trained leaders following the program than ever before, cranking out thousands of NEW woodbadge trained leaders each year... and our numbers are dropping. You explain the dropping, you make a website, and you suggest solutions and the rest of us will take pot shots at you and say to each other about you, as you did about me, "I'm glad he ins't a leader in my son's unit."

"Maybe the BOYS just don't like the magazine! " Ding ding ding, we have a winner. My point exactly... not specifically with the magazine, it actually is pretty good per my boys, but with the program as it sits today. go ahead and watch the program shrivel around you while the old timers ignore the shrinking problem. I am trying to save scouting and make it relevant, without loosing the values.

"Maybe the BOYS just don't like the magazine! " Ding ding ding, we have a winner. My point exactly... not specifically with the magazine, it actually is pretty good per my boys, but with the program as it sits today. go ahead and watch the program shrivel around you while the old timers ignore the shrinking problem. I am trying to save scouting and make it relevant, without loosing the values.

See my website at www.savescouting.org 30% drop in magazine circulation for boys life.... red flag signal... got to turn this ship around.

You guys are really thinking now! We could have a drooling and breaking wind merit badge, a chewing tobacco one, and surfing the net for those bad site mb... ya, you guys are leading this thread down a great road! If some of you want to bury your head in the sand and keep scouting "the way YOU like it" you will watch it dry up around you. Someone above wrote "While I'm not excited over the Bee Keeping Merit Badge, I am happy that there is now Cinematography and Computers Merit Badges. I enjoy that the Climbing Merit Badge now has climbing towers and artificial climbing walls. " Scouting is NOT about what we leaders like. Now how about this: I spoke to a staffer at the company that sells the ads in the scout magazine. He works in the ad office in Los Angeles. He said they recently had to rework their ad rates because of a decline in circulation. For Boys Life, it went from 650,000 to 450,000 monthly. All their magazines are down about 30%... they revise their circulation numbers every few years. 30% drop in magazine subscriptions! You can explain a 1 year drop as just cleaning up the rolls... but this is a multi-year trend. Scouting is loosing kids... when we need scouting more. Burger King changed their uniform from the 1960's, scouting would be more effective if it updated itself. The numbers don't lie. Keeping things the way WE like is killing the program. But perhaps you think scouting is about what you like.

I talked with an ad rep that sells ads in all the scouting magazines. They have a publicly available circulation card they base their advertising prices off. They update that every few years. Their last revision, they had to decrease the number of BOYS LIFE subscriptions on their rate card by 30%! This shows a huge, multi-year decline that can not be explained by one council's over inflated numbers, or cleaning up some old rolls. There are some that want to bury their heads in the sand and think scouting is fine because it is the program THEY like as leaders. Often, they forget that scouting is about the BOYS. Scouting needs a make over, while keep ing the values and lessons. Some would disagree. To them I ask, how much smaller does scouting need to be before something is done? If BP started scouting today, it would not look like the scouting we are trying to hold on to... it would be new, modern, and use icons from our era. I know this because this is the pattern he used.. icons from his day, not 50 or 100 years before his time.

Fuzzy Bear, sounds like you are having a bad day. Hope your posts are better in the future. But thanks for reading.

The new president of the BSA, on page 36 of this months Scouting magazine, was quoted as saying "Scouting must continue to offer an attractive program 'that is relevant to kids today.'" What changes do you think he is going to make to keep scouting relevant to kids today, if any?

"You have no real statistics or surveys to back up your grievances, just simply your personal opinion and preferences. " Stats are linked in the web site. 1 in 20 units closed up in a single year (2005 vs 2004). Talk about a wake up call! Hey, some are coming across as "more holier than thou" because it appears they are putting what they like ahead of what the boys might like. No, never throw away the values. No, don't just try to be a mini-street gang or go with society on everything. But I will say this, if Baden-Powell had set up scouting today most of the old timers would not recoginize it. I say this based upon one simple truth: When BP set it up, it was "in tune with his times"... it was modern for the early 1900's. So his precident isn't to go back 50 or 100 years for icons and chants, it was to use his modern day references. And thats a fact, jack. Seriously, thanks for all the differing views. A good discussion is always a learning expereince. Keep them coming.

No offence meant back, but isn't "BE PREPARED" part of scouting? Campcrafter wrote "Brian you say you were recruited and sent to WB in what sounds like a very short time period and have been stunned by the declining numbers in Scouting. Do you not think that others who have been around for years have seen this "problem" and are trying to address it? Certainly in a more scientific way than the based on the few observations you have made." Please post after you are a little more prepared next time. It is obvious you did not read or understand my website. The stats were from the BSA's own website 2005 v 2004, not from "a few observations you have made." It is about as "scientific" as it gets.. actual enrolment numbers direct from the BSA in Irving Texas. I have not seen 1 in 20 units actually close up in 1 year, rather, it is their stat. I did not see 10.9% drop of the nationwide enrolment in venturing in a single year, the BSA published it. So no, it is not me sitting around watching a local boy drop out. It is the data, provided via a link on my website, that is why I am so concerned and hence, my 4th ticket for Woodbadge (or did you miss that also?) Scouting, in my opinion, needs an overhaul. And it may be uncomfortable for the established long time leaders. That is ok, Scouting is about the boys, not the leaders. We would do well to remember that.

wow fuzzy bear, this seemed to have struck a chord. Anyway, keep up the posts... this is interesting.

"But, I can without a doubt say that decreasing numbers in Scouting has nothing to do with the uniform. " What is causing huge drops in enrolment? Even Burger King has updated their uniform.

Wow, hot topics. I don't claim to have all the viewpoints or answers.. keep it coming! I am learning along the way. Thanks everyone. Someone said I did not like woodbadge and asked about my tickets. I never said that... we had fun.. but I sure felt it 100 years too old.. I kept saying if scouting was founded today it would be completely different.. my opinion. Why am I doing my tickets? Because I am a finisher. I started the program, and I am ending it. It is SMART... and I filled out the form and got it signed off. By the way, just finished (in less than 4 weeks) all 5 tickets! Yes, I am a finisher. Thats why the website and the posts. But also because I truely want a great program for my kids and grandkids. When kids have to hide their scout membership from their friends, as one poster said half his Eagles admited to doing, we have a problem, houston.

"Dorky".. good word. I have heard several kids say that word in relationship to scouting. My 11 year old is wanting to blow through scouts as fast as he can and get his eagle because it is so uncool to a point he doesn't want his friends to know he is involved! So you don't throw darts at him, he is considered an "all american kid" playing up 2 grades in Basketball, starting pitcher in baseball, gifted program at school, and very popular as all the kids have for years come to our house. good, clean cut, popular kids with excellent grades and involved in so much. He is a good barometer for kids today as he is very well rounded in everything. Piano, art, guitar, etc. When I got dressed in Class A's for Woodbadge he laughed. "How are you going to attract middle of the road kids to scouting wearing that?" he basically said over breakfast. Not to hurt anyone's feelings, Scouting can loose the "dorkiness" and still teach the great values. Friends don't let friends be dorks.