89camper

jgood - Contact councils. That rule is out the window. Call where you want to work and let them know you are interested. "The list" will do nothing for you. Someone may have told you not to contact councils, but it just isn't the case anymore. Trust me on this one.

This is an interesting thread that I thought I would try to post a definitive post to try and explain. The titles and duties can be confusing, especially in the middle ranks. I will try to post them from top to bottom in order of rank. Scout Executive - CEO of the Council and Secretary to the Board every council except one has this position ----------- Senior Management (most of these positions should be considered equal with the DFS being most equal) Director of Field Services - COO, leads all field staff (District Executives, District Directors and Field Directors) and where it exists, must be the #2 position in the council. It typically exists in medium-large to large councils. Assistant Scout Executive - Again, usually the number two position. this position must have some responsibility for program, fundraising AND field service. Some large councils have this position in addition to the Director of Field Services and some call it Deputy Scout Executive. Director of Support Services - Usually supervises program directors, camping directors and support staff. think of this person in charge of all the programmatic and in-office staff. Director of Finance Services - Leads the council's fundraising staff, typically consisting of at least two Finance Directors. ---------------------- Middle Management (all of the titles in this group are generally equals) Field Director - Responsible for the direction and training of two or more District Executives, Senior District Executives or District Directors. Does not have a permanent District assignment, but regularly fills vacancies as needed. Considered a Unit Serving Executive District Director - The same position as a Field Director, except they have a permanent District Assignment. Sometimes a District Director Could be supervised by a Field Director, but only in large Field Director assignments. Considered a Unit Serving Executive Finance or Development Director - Typically does not supervise other professionals, but is an experienced Executive who is primarily focused on fundraising. Program or Camping Director- The same as a Finance Director, except focused on Camping or Program. ------------------- Entry-level Senior District Executive - an experienced successful District Executive with at least three years of experience. Responsible for the support of district operations in a particular district. District Executive - The entry level position in the BSA. Responsible for the support of district operations in a particular district

I will agree, we have had our share of unethical professionals in this movement. Unfortunately it is a problem in almost every profession. My experience however is that the vast majority of professionals are in the movement for the right reasons. They deeply care about the program and often are products of it. And even good, deeply committed people make mistakes in judgement from time to time. I too have met professionals that have left because they didn't care for what they were asked to do. Most not because they thought it was unethical, but because they really didn't understand that they were signing up to raise money, recruit volunteers or recruit membership. They wanted to work with kids, they wanted to run camps. Unfortunately that is a very small part of what a professional does day to day. For every professional that I have met that left because of management, I have met another that has left because of volunteers. I have seen Districts that take great joy in "chewing up and spitting out" the new District Executive. There are volunteers that approach professionals with a true chip on the shoulder. I have heard dedicated professionals dressed down by volunteers in such ways as "Well, I don't get paid to do this". So What? You get paid to do something, I hope. That is a way to deminish the role of the professional and make them feel less than you. Often a volunteer will take a bad experience with one professional and project it on the entire profession. How would you like to be treated and judged based on the performance of the worst among your profession. Yes there is great turn over in the professional ranks at the entry level (about 30% in the first year, I think). What is the turn over at your company in the first year? Identifing and hiring effective professionals, in not an easy job. There have been improvements made in the last few years, but the combination of crappy hours, high expectations and volunteer relations is not for everybody, even the ones who think its for them. One last question: Have you asked for your council's by-laws? Have you asked the Secretary of State for a copy? They can be had, but again, its rarely a document that gets passed around, any more than your company's by laws are passed around.

Abel - Bylaws are hardly secret documents. In most states they have to be filed with the Secretary of State and are a public document. I'm not going to say that most councils distribute them weekly, but they are out there if you have an interest. And yes, By-laws do supercede EVERYTHING except the Articles of Incorporation. They are the rules that govern the corporation. Other documents my talk about best methods or how things operate day to day, but the by-laws are the governing document.

I encourage you to check your council by-laws carefully. District elections are allowed to exist at the pleasure of the Council President. No one is eligible for election to the District Committee without approval of the Council President. Yes, Districts have elections, but the Council President has the power to remove or disallow their inclusion on the ballot at any moment for any reason...

Here is the issue to asking somebody to talk the talk and walk the walk: What does that mean. The Scout Oath and Law are a set of standards to try and live your life by every day. We know that NO person is ALL of those things ALL of the time. So what do we put the weight on and how do we measure success? We promise to keep ourselves physically fit. Does that mean that if one is overweight, he/she should not be considered for the job? What if it is the other way and they are stick that can support their own weight? Morally straight. That is defined by many in many different ways. Did President Bush lie, was he sadly misinformed by the intelligence community or did Iraq ship their WMD's to Syria? We can't decide as a nation, so who decides if he is morally straight and qualified to serve the BSA? Mentally awake. How many Scouters work every day to learn new things. To be well read and well informed? Do they listen to other sides of debate and carefully consider those perspectives? I'm not sure that we can even measure this, or we should. I haven't even begun to speak to the twelve points. If anyone tells you that they completely live up to the Scout Oath and Law everyday, I would tell you that they were either born of a virgin or they are failing point one of the Scout Law. These two codes are not destinations they are journeys. Each of us struggle with them everyday. But, are we truly striving to fulfill them, or are they just empty words. That is the test in my mind.

The Council President owes nobody an explanation. The District Chair serves at the pleasure of the Council President. Period. Let's keep in mind that the District Executive or the Scout Executive did not remove this Chair. The Council President, who is a volunteer, did. So why all the discussion about the Pros?

You all really don't know what you are talking about. You are falling into the same trap that many outsiders do when our constitutional issues are reported in the news. You need to understand how the compensation is reported as required by the IRS. Did Roy Williams make $580,000 in his last year? Yes. That includes all of his bonus etc for the final year. I believe his typical salary was about $400,000 a year normally. Did he make $1.5 Million? NO! That is the total value of his deferred compensation (retirement) if he lives to the average actuaral table age. Take $1.5 Million and divide by 15 years. Based on his orginal salary it doesn't sound so outrageous, does it. Remember that he has contributed much of that money himself over his career. It is still considered deferred compensation. Now I am no fan of Roy Williams. Luckily we are back on the right track. But don't go after his salary. That's cheap.

One clarification: Revocation of Membership is forever. You are afforded an appeal to the Region and an appeal to National. If the decision is not overturned at one of those appeals (usually within 6 months of the orginal decision), your name is added to "the list". Rarely if ever does someone come off of that list.

Well, It looks like we are going to get the best of both worlds. Here is how this story is shaking our now: 1. The City of Federal Way has offered $3 million for Camp Kilworth. 2. The Camp will become a public park and open space. 3. The Council purchased useage of the facilities for as long as the land remains a public park as a part of the sales agreement. 4. The Camp will be improved and maintained by the City of Federal Way. 5. The Council gets capital to improve its other properties. All in all a Win-Win solution.

Concerned Scouter - You show you ingnorance on several counts: 1. Thunderbird is not designed nor is it equipted as a Cub Scout Resident Camp. It is simply a Boy Scout Camp that also hosts Cub Scout events. That is a fundamental difference. 2. The PHC to my knowledge has less staff than it has since the merger. As I understand, there are four or five vanancies on the staff. 3. I have no knowledge about personnel issues, perhaps you know of firings, I do not. 4. Where did you hear that the Kilworth family was somehow getting paid off? Perhaps you have more information that everyone one else. I have heard nothing of the sort. Sir, I do not know who you are, or why you choose to try and drag down Scouting like you are, but I do know that you are misinformed. I also believe that you do not represent the sentiments of the vast majority of PHC Scouters. I have lost a Scout Camp that was very important to me. I know the pain. If we could keep our relatives alive for ever would we? That certainly would avoid a lot of pain in our lives. But I know from experience that pain is God's way of allowing us to grow by leaps and bounds. Please do not trash our fine council and Scoutings name because of this pain. Jump in, get involved and help us all move forward. Here's and oar, I hope you will take it.

Concerned_Scout has not given the full story on this sale. I have been following this quite diligently and am aware of some of the details involved. The Pacific Harbors Council was merged in the early 1990's from three previous councils: Mt. Rainier Council (Tacoma,WA); Tumwater Area Council (Olympia,WA) and Twin Harbors Council (Aberdeen,WA). These Councils merged because they were all having their difficulties staying financially viable. When the councils merged they kept all the assets of the previous three councils. Until just recently, they operated three service centers, they have recently cut that back to two. The Council has lost nearly 25% of its membership since 2001. It has been running operating defficets for three years running. All of this while facilities have been suffering due to lack of funds to reinvest. A Committee was formed of volunteer Scouters to determine how to help stem the tide of membership loss and red ink and the following plan was devised. 1. Close and sell one of the three Council Service Centers. Reinvest the cash from this sale to upgrade the facilities at Camp Delezenne to better accomodate weekend camping for Troops looking for wilderness camping experiences and update the #2 service center in facilities and technology to allow more stock in the store and better unit service. 2. Sell Camp Kilworth. This sale will generate millions of dollars to reinvest in other council camps. Namely the profits would be used to build facilities at Camp Hahobas including a dining hall (it currently has a steel pole shelter) and other programatic features. Also, the proceeds would be used to convert Camp Thunderbird into a Cub SCout resident Camp. The Council currently does not have any facilities designed specifically for Cub Scouts. Camp Thunderbird is centrally located within the council borders. It is a 45-50 minute drive from downtown Tacoma, a 15 minute drive from Olympia and a 45 minute drive from Aberdeen. It is well suited to serve Cub Scouts across the council. Most recently, it has been reported in the paper that the council is trying to work with the City of Federal Way to sell it to them to keep as an open space and park. Frankly, I think the Board and our Scout Executive has been quite judious in the use of our council resources. All of this money is being directly reinvested in our camping properties while reducing annual operating expenses. I know that it is difficult to lose a camp, it is never easy. But, this is a good solution to the councils problems. It reduces operating expenses while increasing the level of program which will attract more boys to the program. Who could argue with that?

I am very familiar with Medicine Mountain Scout Ranch. It is a campground, nothing more. If you are looking for an inexpensive place to camp for a week while you tour the Black Hills it is your place. If you are looking for a high quality summer camp program, then keep looking. The camp in Eastern South Dakota (Lewis & Clark) has an incredible program, it just doesn't have the Black Hills.