Just A Rebel

Maybe we could include gay girls...that makes them boys, right

Exactly, Rick. They DON'T want to do things generally associated with a female gender stereotype to the exclusion of other things. They see the boys doing 'fun' things and want to do them too. And Alex, I hardly see continuing 1930's stereotypes as productive. I have to keep coming back to the mission and vision statement. In this modern day, don't we owe it to these girls to give them the exact same skills these boys have in order to be successful? And let's not forget that the VALUES are the real goal of Scouting, not that one can start a fire, or whittle a stick...but how to make life choices and life decisions in accordance with the Scout Oath and Law.

Pack18Alex: The whole point of what I observed is that these girls didn't necessarily WANT a different program. They wanted to do what the boys were doing, and they were perfectly capable of doing that program. In my mind, no program changes are even necessary, because those girls WANT to do the same things the boys are doing. There is NOTHING gender-specific in the Cub program that boys and girls can't do, and looking at the Boy Scout program, nothing gender-specific there either. I had heard that GSA had gone more 'liberal', and that AHG had started up as a reaction to that, but in my mind, I don't understand why BSA formed that partnership. National formed a partnership with an outside religious organization with very specific religious beliefs woven into their program and with no interest in BSA membership, but is very willing to use their program, and their facilities, recruiting girls that otherwise would be BSA members (if BSA allowed girls). This sounds to me like the conservative membership drove along that agreement, but I don't see any direct benefit for BSA in general from this partnership. In fact, they will likely LOSE female membership in the Venture program as these AHG girls stay in their program, instead of moving over to Venturing. Girls starting at age 6 are actually a key demographic segment for BSA, IF they allowed girls to join. Girls that join AHG more because of the program, rather than the religious aspect, are girls that should be in BSA. My wife was talking to a Venture Crew advisor yesterday about girls in BSA, and she told my wife that all of the female Venturers she knew were there because of brothers in Boy Scouts, and because they wanted to do the same thing the boys were doing. Imagine the impact to the Venture program if we could GROW Venturers (or female Scouts), just like we grow Boy Scouts through the Cub Program. King: I am 100% with you on that. My mother, bless her, had the foresight to teach each of her sons how to clean, simple sewing, do laundry, cook amazing meals, and in general take care of themselves. I agree there should be a sewing requirement at some point before Star. Maybe not a MB, but at least a requirement for a couple of simple sewing tasks. My wife was talking to a Venture Crew advisor yesterday about girls in BSA, and she told my wife that all of the female Venturers she knew were there because of brothers in Boy Scouts, and because they wanted to do the same thing the boys were doing. Imagine the impact to the Venture program if we could GROW Venturers (or female Scouts), just like we grow Boy Scouts through the Cub Program.

King... You're right, CS is family-oriented, BS is not. So the solution is to NOT create a donut hole and just allow the natural progression from CS to Scouting, for both male and female. Boy Scouts is not an outdoors program. It is a VALUES program, which is taught using the outdoors as a classroom. All of these skills are nice to learn, but the point is not to learn how to tie a square knot, the point is to learn how to live and breathe the Scout Oath and Law in everyday life. The Square knot is just a tool to learning those values. The Mission and Vision statement don't say anything at all about the outdoors, but they do talk about teaching young people to make ethical decisions across their lifetime. And these Brownies on our camping trip certainly didn't complain that the restroom facilities were 100 yards away, and that they were sleeping in tents. they were LOVING it. Maybe the parents have more issues than the girls about such things.

I have a 20 foot sea container, and about 80% of it is filled with Scout stuff...Now, if I could only get a tax writeoff for that

Wow...Spaceballs flashback...'Ludicrous Speed....NOW!"

Take a look at the Mission and Vision statements...no mention whatsoever about boys...its 'Young People' and 'Youth'. No gender mentioned at all. And inclusion of girls would allow them to gain those exact same skills, and would also help boys adapt to the modern world where they will have to cooperate, and compete, with members of the opposite sex, something that wasn't necessary 50 years ago.

Then you are very fortunate. I look around at Roundtable, and we are probably about 70% women. Women play a very active role in our area, and to be honest, step up and volunteer to do things more often than the men do at times.

I suspect that a few carefully placed words to the boys would have helped that situation. Just like we do with parents, when a youth moves up to be a Boy Scout, its time to teach the parent the 'Scoutmaster Position' (hands in pockets, just making sure they don't go over a cliff'.

Took me a couple of minutes, but I finally understood your thing about 'uniforming'. Here's my point. We live in a world with male and females in it, and to be successful, one must learn to deal with the other gender. Is it not better that we start to prepare these boys for an adult world with women in it, than to shelter them in the Iron John mythos? These boys will need to both cooperate, and compete with these women in school, college, careers, and adulthood. And I'm not sure I agree with your 'blurting out of boy thoughts'. How is a boy's thoughts different from a girls? Each of us has a different point of view, each of us responds differently. And remembering back to my ancient childhood, I don't remember being silenced by girls. If I knew the answer, I did my best to show it. What you are promoting is a continuation of the 'good old boys club', and I really think our society has been down that road way too far, and for too long.

I detect a hint of sarcasm there, but you really do hit the nail on the head. My wife, a uniformed leader, somewhat frequently gets asked 'Aren't you wearing the wrong uniform?' To which she replies...'I don't have girls, I have boys'. And the ever-popular 'You don't belong in Boy Scouts'. Well, if enough men would step up, she wouldn't have to. But they don't, so its better to have a female leader, than none at all.

The problem with segregated units is that families will be separated. Means multiple weekend activities, one for the Boy unit, one for the Girl unit. Parents are so torn today due to lack of time, I just don't see it working if a family has a Boy Cub, and a Girl Cub too.

Some local units do all kinds of things, and some local units shouldn't be Boy Scouts if they don't want to do things as proscribed. Boy Scouts exists because all over the Western world at the turn of the century men took an interest in the plight of young boys who weren't even their own, and decided to invest in them uniquely. They came from every background, from rough frontiersmen to clergy to wealthy progressives to cult of body idealists, not because they were setting out to "discriminate" or segregate, but because they saw a need for a particular sympathetic creature, the boy, and picked him for the philanthropy. I've been through the entire program, from Tiger on up, and there is NO gender-specific requirements anywhere. No program changes are needed, because girls would join because THEY WANT THE EXISTING program, not a duplicate of Girls Scouts. Girls can and will be able to do all of the requirements, to the best of their ability. 'Do Your Best'.

I followed up with this group, and they have found a workaround solution...Its certainly not ideal, but does allow girls to legitimately be registered with BSA for insurance purposes through the Learning for Life program.

Wonderful discussion, everyone...And I never really had to truly activate the asbestos underwear...phew! I've been sitting back, just watching and listening, and there are many valid points. I'm going to start back at the beginning and start responding to some of these points, so you may have to wade back through some posts you have already read, totally your choice.But I am going to sum things up here. Honestly, I hadn't even considered girls in Scouting until this campout where they were just as actively engaged as the boys were, doing the same activities as the boys and watching as we put on an amazing Arrow of Light and Crossover ceremony, and the same girls that were actively engaged in the activities were intensely interested in what was happening. There is an unmet need, and we have the ability to fill it for these girls. I now truly believe that the future of Scouting is coed at all levels, just like it is in so many other WOSM. I've been actively involved since my older son was a Bear, and my younger son was a Tiger, and they are Life and Star rank now. I've never seen anything in either the Cub or Boy Scout program that was gender-specific. There's nothing in the program that both boys and girls cannot do, equally as well as the other gender. Are program changes needed? Absolutely not, because the program as it exists today already would fill an unmet need in a girl's life, for those that WANT THIS PROGRAM. Its always, at all levels, 'Do Your Best'. Can a girl lead a flag ceremony? Can a girl hike and camp? Can a girl learn about knots, and fire-building, and everyday survival skills? Can a girl learn how to practice the Scout Oath and Law, every day, to the best of her ability? Can you imagine a world where more people lived the Oath and Law, and what that world would look like? I can. Logistics changes on a unit level? Yeah, probably, would need female and male leaders in coed units...But that wheel has already been invented, it just needs to be brought down to a lower level and applied there. If you look at the National, yes National Vision and Mission Statements, there is NOTHING about 'BOYS' in there. Mission: The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Vision: The Boy Scouts of America will prepare every eligible youth in America to become a responsible, participating citizen and leader who is guided by the Scout Oath and Law. Its 'Young people' and 'youth', not 'Boys' and 'Young Men'. We are all passionate about this program, or we wouldn't be here. Why would we NOT want to give those girls that want what Scouting is about, the opportunity to find out for themselves the values of the Scout Oath and Law. So many units, especially Cub units, already allow siblings to participate in some activities. Why should we deny those siblings the opportunity to receive REAL RECOGNITION for what they accomplish alongside their brothers. Was talking to a coed Venture Crew advisor tonight, and do you know where many of the girl Venturers come from? They are siblings to Boy Scouts, that want to do what their brothers do, but we won't let them until they are 14. How many of these would-be Venturers just give up before they even have a chance to get started? And finally, Woodbadge preaches diversity, and yet, we are held back from applying the spirit of that diversity in a real and fundamental way. BSA is primed to make the move, everything is in place to allow coed units at all levels, all they, and we, need to do is take that scary step into the unknown to open up a world to these girls that they can only glimpse at, not really become part of.