OldGreyEagle

But think of the alternative. I am not free right now by any stretch of the imagination. I have to drive my truck, not the truck or vehicle I want, I must drive only what I own or have permissin to operate. And how do I define ownership anyway? I have a sheet of paper that says that truck, VIN xxx whatever belongs to OldGreyEagle. Its mine because society recognizes that piece of paper is legal and binding. I sleep in the house I own, along with the bank that is. I stay there because, again I have a piece of paper that says its my residence. No one else may reside there, unless of course they break the law and come in. If I prevent them from comming in, am I infringing on their liberty? I guess I am, but my right to my security and residence trumps their right to be in the place I call home. When I go to the stores, I cannot take what I want, I am not free to pick up that which I desire, I can't even pick up that which I need. I must follow the laws and customs of the society in which I choose to live. No one has complete liberty. You have the freedom and liberty to wave your arms around in as random fashion as you wish, that liberty stops however about an inch from the tip of my nose. When I drive down the street, I am not free to drive as fast as I want nor am I free to drive on the left side of the road, although it may remind Eammon of home. Wherever we go, in whatever we do, we follow the rules, customs, the limits of society. And yet I do not begrudge any of it.

All society's place limits on the behavior of individuals. You talk about it as the death of freedom, I see the behavioral conventions of society giving us security. All society's have limitations on behavior. Have you read Rousseau's Social Contract?

Rules, Guidelines, Policies, Laws, Requrirements are all easy when you agree with them, not so much when you don't

Well, originally from Chicago, but thats not where the green jello comes from PS there is a huge void between Liberty and Anarchy(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

The First Amendment does protect public free speech, and this is not a public place, so there is no promise of Free Speech here although I do believe a lot is tolerated. But if the concept of Freedom of expression is being discussed one must consider socialized norms. One could consider George Carlin's Seven Words you can't say on the Radio. Why not? Would the world end if they were uttered on the radio? Why can't Howard Stern do his show over the "Free" radio waves? Why can't I run through the streets naked with green Jell-o all over my body reading Playboy magazine? Because we accept the social contract and realize there are parameters to behavior in public. While a man's home may be his castle and whatever goes on between two consenting adults is not society's concern, that which goes on in view of society must conform to the views of that society. We acquiece to society's norms because society norms provides security

AH, yes, Antigone, thats the one. I wonder if the world would be a better place if we all but studied the classics, I wonder if war would disappear if a global Lysistrata were to appear? I loved Aristophanes, he was a hoot!

antagonation, wasn't that a play by Sophocles?

If it was the Grateful Dead's Rainbow Bears, you could have had a mighty hip patrol So, when you ask the patrol members what patrol they are and they reposond "we are the Bear wrASSlers", and you say, "what did you say?" And they reply "we are the Bear Wrasslers, what did you think we said" replete with smirks, sniggles and outright chortles, I find it offensive and if that makes me too sensitive, well then I can live with it I helped the new scout patrol with selecting a name, they went with the name "the Jokers" and will use the Bat patrol patch. Their yell is "Why so Serious?"(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

When I see a person listed as being from "Gulf Coast" offering sympathy to another person who has suffered a natrual disaster, I get a deeper understanding of what is meant by the Brotherhood of Scouting

You can tell a moderator (but not much) by the asterisk after the notation "Senior Forum Member" Anyway, thanks to those who PMed me about the problem. It was resolved before I got on.

I preferred Gabrielle, actually

What if we all called Irving's main number, asked for the Camping section of the Boy Scout Division and asked is this was tru...

Do we know for sure that this is going to happen? Can we wait until its officially announced and then pounce on the issue? I would not want to see adultless patrol outings disappear myself, but before we get all in a lather, lets make it the situation is lather-worthy in the first place

This may be a local issue, in one place, just saying we will act like scouts and in another local the written notice may be a good idea. it may be that we trust each other to do what is best for the youth under or guidance. BTW, whether written or not, signed or not there has to be a threshold behavior level that will get you sent home and its best if all the adults agree on it before the event. I am not looking to send kids home, but after the incident is not the time for the adults to argue about whether or not its "bad" enough to send the youth home. In the troop I serve its up to the socutmaster or "acting" scoutmaster to decide and there is no room for debate.

A short line, like Scoutlike behvior is an expectation of any unit event. Then when the unscoutlike behavior is exhibited, a call to the parent and location of where the scout is to be picked up is all that is needed. Oh yes, the scout also get to tell the parent what the unscoutlike behavior prompted the call. This does mean you have the parents number of all participants and cell phones as well. Had an incident where the youth was out of control and when threatened with having parents called, the retort was fine, they are in Atlantic City for the week end, turns out they were...

The Guide to Safe Scouting mentions Caving http://www.scouting.org/healthandsafety/gss/gss09.aspx#b Sounds like fun, if you are not claustrophobic...

She is going to represent the Council, I think she should wear Silver tabs as it signfies she is there as a representative of the Council.

Are we sure about this? I know the Advancment and Uniform guides are being looked at, could this have been confused with that?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

The best part for me is that the first Venturer to speak, and she is the first female to speak, the 4th voice, was a Crew member of the Crew I used to serve. She is now the DE in the District I serve and it is indeed a tragedy when you try to raise them up right and then they go and turn to the darkside

1. Pioneering, it is the most Boy Scouty of all the merit badges 2. Camping it is what we do, or at least should be doing 3. Backpacking c'mon, how can you not be a Boy Scout and not backpack at some point 4. Orienteering while you are doing all that backpacking, perhaps it's a good idea to know how to find your way 5. Cooking with al that camping and backpacking, you still gotta eat

Well, I reject the premise you can't do both. But, that never stopped me from posting How many technical types out there know people who became a Supervisor based on being the bet engineer, best technician, best whatever the plant had ever seen and then failed miserably in the position because they didn't know how to manage? You need both technical skill and managerial know how. In scouting, the scouting skills are what is taught and without them what do we have? But we also need to provide a context, a way to show the youth how to manage those who need to learn and implement those skills. When is the Boy Scout program the best? When boys learn and implement the outdoor skills because they are fun and learn how to teach and learn repsonsibility and how to lead as a by product without even knowing they are learning.

Actually a Sports Venturing Crew would seem to fit the bill

It takes two to Tangle - My sainted Polish Grandmother It takes two to Tango - Fred Astaire

"Its easier to deliver a program full of theory than skills. That Eagle scout can't camp worth a darn, tie a knot, set-up a tent, organize a campout or cook a meal. But he is chock full of the magic stuff called "leadership theory"." Sorry man, but if you have such an Eagle Scout or if you know of such an Eagle Scout, it is not the BSA who is responsible, the blame falls directly on the shoulder of the adults who allowed such an abomination. Yes, there is much talk about Management theory but if the program does not teach knots and then reinforce the knot knowledge with games and the opportunity of using the skills, it is not the BSA's fault. If the Unit does not teach the scout how to organize a campout or a meal (which sounds a lot like it should be based on "leadership theory" by the way,) it is not BSA's fault, but the unit. I have neer seen an Eagle Application signed by the BSA, all the ones I have seen are signed by Unit volunteers, it is these people who are to assure the skills required to advance have been taught and are retained by the units program. if Eagles cannot tie knots, its not on the BSA

TwoCub, Persistence may be considered a virture by some and annoying by others, but I am not sure "fahionable" would be the adjective I would use. Certainly what NYLT teaches is applicable to all facets in a youth life as is the current Wood Badge Curriculum for adults. I don't see it as detracting from Scouting Skills but others may not hold the same view.