OldGreyEagle

So, it seems your son wants to "earn" Eagle on his terms. I hope if he does accomplish this, then he does not beleive everything in life will be done according to his "terms"

What the heck, its been a year It was a long time ago, in a place far far away, well, actually Chicago area, about 1965 or so. I was a bright young scout, really Gung Ho. I thought being a scout was the bestest thing in the whole world, I was part of the World Brotherhood of Scouting, it was the 60's and love was around us. On one summer campout, we drove for what seemed like hours. We got to the campsite and set up. The Troop used an Army surplus 16X16, that thing was huge, and it was heavy and we all loved it. It was so big the entire Troop slept in it. The cooler older guys on one side and us other guys on the other. After the tent was up and the gear stowed, Charlie, the SPL came over and told me he needed my help. I was in like 7th heaven. Charlie was like a god to us younger scouts, he had his license and his own car. It was a 57-58 Chevy, it was painted candy apple red and roared like a jet, that car was cool. Rumor was he shaved everyday and had a girl friend. He had muscles and was talking about joining the Army. I fairly floated as we walked over to the group of older cooler scouts. Finally I was going to be part of the in crowd. Then I was informed I was to be the bag man on a snipe hunt. It was simple, all I had to do was stand on the Snipe trail and hold the bag open and the Snipe would run straight into it. Now, wait I said, I know what a Snipe hunt is, and I am not going to do it. I felt a lot let down that Charlie thought I was stupid enough to fall for a gag like that. So then Charlie says, well, you are right, but you know, Snipes are birds (As Ed is sure to point out)and we happened to have driven into where they live. So badly did I want to be a member of the "Inner Sanctum" that I bought it. I went out and held the bag, and held it, and held it and held it. Well, back at camp the older scouts sure were having a party at my expense, they had this kid who knew about Snipe Hunts out on a Snipe Hunt, it was glorious. The adults on the trip knew what was going on, and reminded them that I was supposed to be brought back to camp about 1 am if I didnt show up first. Back at the Snipe Trail I stood, bag open. I knew Snipes were rare birds and figured we had driven long enough to get in their range. I waited, and waited. Along about dawn I figured I had waited long enough. Seems the older scouts got their signals crossed and everyone thought someone else would get me, but nobody did. I got back to camp as breakfast was being made, and when I was spotted, the whole camp cheered, laughed and hooted. I was not having a fun time. I remember thinking, remember this moment, remember how hot your cheeks feel, how angry you are, you are never ever going to feel this way again, I must admit had I means to physically harm Charlie, I may have availed myself of the opportunity. A few months later it was the Fall Camporee. Charlie again asked me for some help. I asked him what, I was more than a little suspicious of anything he said at this point. He told me he needed the Camps Canon Report. It has the schedule of the Camporee on it and it was floating around the camp and people would get it, copy it down and pass it on. So, after being assured it was real, I made him say "scout's honor" I went off. Gol dang it if every troop I visited had just had it but passed it along minutes before I got there. I went to over 10 troops before a kindly old scoutmaster who knew my dad from work asked me if I had ever been on a Snipe Hunt. I almost fainted. The rage, anger, fear, humiliation just ran through me like an electric shock. He had done it to me again. I walked back to camp, slinked actually, imagining all who saw me were laughing behind my back, pointing me out as that absolute and complete idiot, first he falls for a Snipe Hunt and then he beleives the Snipe Hunt guy and looks for the Canon Report. When I got back to camp, I walked up to Charlie and told him I was sorry, but I didnt get it, but I would go after it first thing in the morning. I never did go after it and I never talked to Charlie again. I never did anything he said and completely blocked him and all his older buddies out. I had learned never, ever to trust what a boy leader said because they were out to get me. I resolved that they did not exist in my world. As time went on, I made sure that no other scout ever went through what I did. I would tell all the new scouts about snipe hunts and canon reports and left handed smoke shifter, 50 ft of shoreline and all that. I told them if anyone asked them to do anything that didnt sound right, to ask me first. I had a few angry older scouts, but I didnt care and I was getting big enough that nobody retaliated. I eventually was elected Senior Patrol Leader because the scouts knew I would not betray them.

here are links to three "Gilwell Gazzettes" http://www.sr851.org/Gilwell_Gazettes/Gilwell_Gazette_v1i1_Friday_20071005.pdf http://www.people.vcu.edu/~albest/woodbadge/Gazettes/SR809/GilwellGazette-Day1.pdf http://wb63.com/pdf/wb63gazette2-1.pdf All have the list of Patrol leaders responsibilities, non say anything about whim, looks like a local thing

Every once in awhile brother Beavah DOES write a response I understand and in this case I agree. A straight A student/scout has the honor roll, the National Honor Society and a few other organizations that will recognize his academic excellance, why would the BSA want to add to that? I am not belittling academic excellance, I just don't see the need for the BSA to get into the academic excellance congratulatory game

"Or, someone is goin' to read that dumb handbook paragraph from the second class requirement" Dumb? in the best Maynard G Krebbs possible You rang? This is what the Socut handbook says about Scout Spirit: Tenderfoot Defined p 47 Scout Spirit refers to the effort you make to live up to the ideals of Scouting. The Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan serve as everyday guidelines for a good life. Tenderfoot, Requirement #13 p60 discuss scout spirit with your scoutmaster and with older boy scouts in your troop. Ask them for examples of how you can demonstrate Scout Spirit . You will likely hear examples of the Scout Oath and Law as ways to show your Scout spirit Second Class Requirement #9 p108 Most requirements for Scout ranks can be measured by other people. When you set out to swim 50 feet for the Second Class swimming requirement, anyone can see that you have covered the distance. How well you live the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your life, though is something for you to judge. You know when you are being kind, when you are helpful and a good friend. You know when you are trustworthy. and reverent. You alone know how you act when no one is around to witness what you do. Do the best you can to live each day by the Scout Oath and Law. You might look back on some of the decisions you've made and wish you had acted differently, but you can learn from those moments and promise yourself you will do better in the future. And dont be surprised that when you use the scout oath and law for guidance, others will recognize those values in you and respect you for it. Set high standards for yourself and strive to reach them. No one can ask anymore of you First class Requirement #10 p164 At troop and patrol gatherings you've recited the Scout Oath and the Scout Law dozens of times. The words come easily to you, but do you know what those words mean? The Scout Oath and Scout Law are not just for reciting at meetings. They are not just to be obeyed while you are wearing a uniform. The spirit of Scouting that they represent is every bit as important when you are at home, at school and in your community. The Scout Oath begins with the words, "On my honor. . ." Your honor is your word. By giving your word, you are promising to be of good character and to keep your reputation untarnished. Be trustworthy in all you say and do. Extend friendship to others. Be thrifty with your time and resources. Be tolerant of others, regardless of their differences, and celebrate the great diversity that enriches our nation and the world. Express reverence in accordance with your beliefs. Offer a helping hand because you want to, not because you expect a reward. The standards set by the Scout Oath and Scout Law are very high Strive to reach them every day, and you will find that they become as natural for you to live by as they are for you to say. Star/Life/Eagle p170 BY NOW, DOING GOOD TURNS should be a regular part of your life You are always on the lookout for ways to help others. By now, Be Prepared should describe your efforts to make the most of educational opportunities, get along with others, and take part in outdoor adventures. By now, the Scout Oath and the twelve points of the Scout law should be the guidelines by which you direct your actions in your family, community, church, school, and nation. Living by these high standards is always a personal choice and something only you can fully measure. But by now, many other people should be seeing qualities in you that make it clear you are choosing "Your standing as a Scout does not depend so much on the skills of your hands or the badges an your merit badge sash, as an the spirit in your heart on what you are willing to do for others, on whether you are doing your very best to live the Scout Oath and Law:' NB: nothing about how many trips or meetings you are supposed to attend, or even a note to the scouts to pay attnetion to the Scoutmaster as he may have attendance quota's the scout meeds to meet.

HICO, how do you propose that one deliver the promise when one hasn't bothered to learn what the promise is?

Ah, I understand, see if you would have said flushed the socks down the toilet or threw the socks into the latrine I would have understood. Neither behavior is very scouty I am sure we all understand and it would take like twice to have real conseqeunces and I dont donr mean a stern talking to

first off, I am working on how you can flush anything down a latrine, but that isnt the point. if you have a scout who likes to destroy the property of others and continues despite multiple warnings to cease and desist then you don't have a scout spirit issue, you have a criminal issue. What new scout is going to hang around to see his property destroyed? I think the situation that Ed describes is perfect for removing a scout for disciplinary reasons. I don't like to remove boys from units, but the security of others and their property is more important. If a boy does the requirements, then he is active although it would be helpful if the BSA would be a little more clear on this issue. For all the sturm und drang this topic elicits, perhas a few phrases in a publication would be nice. Nice of course as long as I agree with it...

I picked up a bastard at a flea market with an idea to make it a knife, then I heard about having to temper it, any thought on the best way to grind it into a blade and the make sure it doesnt shatter the next time I drop it? I know there will be a next time

Some day Beavah you are goung to write a response that I understand, at this point I have no idea of what you are trying to say but thats ok, obviously you dont understand what I am saying either

Beavah, you missed the point. A College has requirements to graduate, the BSA has requirements to earn ranks. No College I know of says if you pay your tuition, then you will graduate and neither does the BSA say if you are registered you will earn ranks. Yes, you are listed as aa active scout, just as paying tuition says you are a student enrolled in a course of study. The crux of the situation is can you perform as the professors in your classes expect or not. In the BSA, have you done the requirements or not. The requirements for Eagle have several requirements going much father than merely being registered. One could think, seeing some sentiment about the active=registered argument, that some are givng out ranks just because they are registered, if that is happening, then that is an outright corruption of the BSA Advancement program. To be a Tenderfoot, Second Class, etc, Scout you have to first be registered in the organization. To be a Grand High Knight of the Beaver Lodge, you have to be a member in Good Standing, this is the same thing. You have to fulfill requirements as judged by the unit leadership, being registered alone does not get you any rank And Beavah, when I said "When you require something its because people wont natrually do it." I can see how you misunderstood. I knew what I meant, but I guess the written word took away my message. I wil try another approach. Rather than require attendance why would not a unit attempt to develop a program that would make attendance requirements moot? Perhaps that is a better expressin of my sentiment.

scorpionace, back off the insults on scoutldr. I directed him to the site owner. do not continue on your present course

"Ya missed the point Frank. If a Scout comes to minimal unit meetings & campouts yet completes all the requirements is he active? According to National, yup! A Scout will win on appeal every time regardless of how many unit meetings & campouts he has attended!" The College that I got my bachelor's degree from had a Grdaduation requirment of 120 hours, no distinction was made for those who completed 120 and those who may have amassed many more. Those who met the requirements graduated If a scout meets the requirements, he met the requirements. Requirments, I may add that have been signed off by the unit leaders, not the BSA. Beavah, F Scouter is not the only one who thinks the way he does. I have seen Troops in the Disitrct I serve brandish attendance requirements because it's only right that the boy avail themselves of the program the hard working leaders have assembled (so much wrong you know). When you require something its because people wont natrually do it. If a scout won't natrually come to scouts, why not develop a program that he will come to rather than require him to attend what you have?

Yes, Youth on Boards of Review was a part of the Program, but it no longer is. Having youth sit on the Boards of Review is like having a scout Morse Code or Semaphore to get First Class, yes it was part of the Program but now it isn't. At some point each leader decides to follow the program he promised he would when he signed up or they decide to go their merry way cherry picking what they like and ignoring what they don't. Some may suceed and some may fail. I dont think its right, but thats jut my opinion

Make mine Yokumberry

Of course Ed you are right, BTW, who signs the book, a Scoutmaster designee or the BSA?

How does a scout who is not active earn any ranks?

How does one "earn" any award if one is not active?

It sounds like a very conscientious plan and I think its great you are looing out for this scout and his scouting experience. Lets say you do everything you mention and the kid ends up drowing because his tent mates were too tired to notice him leaving? If the parents raise this as a concern, I would expect a parent to be present and help you assess the situation. How often did the youth get up at night? How often was the father awaken? I can see working with the family, but the family has to work with you as well. Having a noctambulist in the troop can be fun, but only with appropriate controls

While at Camp School at Camp Resolute, Knox Trail Council this past weekend the National Supply wing of the BSA was there. I picked up a 60" Camp Cooking Tripod from Lodge for Mountain Man reenacting. Lodge is a familiar name in Dutch Ovens and all things Cast iron. As I was carrying the item in my Nissan Frontier (assembled in Smyrna, Tennesse) I noticed a tag that said "Made in China". Would these items be incldued in the petition as well? Should the Scout Stores only sell made in America merchandise? How much will be left? I want to buy American as much as I can, but I also have to compare prices, at what point can I afford to be an Economic Patriot and pay more for an item because its American Made?

This kinda confuses me, in a thread in this section there is much consternation about uniform prices going up and then we have this thread that says that BSA merchandise should be Made in America. Now, I am steeped in a culture that says if you want lower prices on clothes, you go off shore. It is possible my attitude is wrong so if it is, please let me know. But if the BSA required the uniform to be American made (a great super hero from the Tick BTW)I can't imagine the squawking about the price. Now, that assumes and I hear you Ed, that the American clothing industry can't compete with off shore, does anyone know anything about this?

Confirmation of skills should be as easy as watching your scouts, the troops prgram, whether in meetings ot on events should have multiple opprotunities for scouts to demontrate their skills. Learning something that is never used does lend itself towards skill rentention

Never understood the mentality of giving out pushups as corrective action, or discipline for that matter. You have two scouts caught doing somehting minorly disruptive, you say give me 10, the youth who also wrestles, snaps off a quick 10 as fast as you can blink your eyes, the other youth struggles mightily to get 4 done. What have you taught? The wreslter figures, heck if this is as bad as it gets, I dont have to follow the rules, I can just do pushups. The other kid figures, just wait until I can do pushups as well as my buddy, then we will rule the roost.

A dear friend of mine has a grandfather who was fond of saying "all money comes with strings". When a state takes Federal Money, there are mandates the states must follow, when a College/University takes money from a student who got the money from the Feds, there are rules to follow, Title IX, the reason we have a dominant prescence in female team sports, Soccer, Softball, basketball is because of this. And now, Industry. I couldn't beleive that the Feds would give billions to the same management group that lead the auto compnaies into the ground in the first place. Its like giving a dope/gambling addict a million dollars and then "telling" them to spend it wisely. What did they think was going to happen when you take money? That there were to be no string? I hope there is some oversight on the Financial front as well. No, I dont like the Feds running the Auto indutry, I didnt like they gve them any money but if you take Feds money there are consequences to the action.

Yeah, A Scouters Tea Party, instead of the slogan, "No Taxation without Representation" our slogan can be, "Trainin'? We Don't Need No Stinkin' Trainin"