OldGreyEagle

So, GW, have you been that mean ol' umpire who wouldn't let the kid play baseball in his jeans?

Comming from an area where I have been told more than one time that since I took the 21rst Century WoodBadge, I could in no way be at all as good as those who took the previous version, it was my impression that was what Kudu was talking about. As I aged out in 1971 and was an ASM with the troop for a few years before I drifted away from scouting, I have never known a pre-1972 Wood Badge graduate. So the BSA has been bereft of quality leaders for over 35 years, who knew? Wow, all I can say is Wow(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Lets take time to realize this thread is about the American Heritage Girls and the BSA, not about the ACLU and its' ability to sue. If you wish to talk about the ACLU, please spin off a new thread

See thats the whole point, I love the Red Beret because of what it means to me. Wearing the Red Beret was the high point of my scouting career. When I was a scout we had the gung ho patrol. The scoutmaster put us all together in one patrol because a few of us would get upset if another patrol member wouldnt take scouting as serious as we did. he put us together, called us the Gung Ho patrol and we did patrol outings. We camped away from the troop. Can't say it was 300 feet, but it was away and only members of the Gung Ho patrol were allowed to wear the Red Beret. So, to me, the Red Beret was/is cool. To Kudu, apparently the red beret is his symbol of whatever is wrong with the BSA. So, there you have it, to me the Red Beret is Iconic of the good times I had as a scout while to Kudu the red beret is more moronic than iconic. Two realities taken from different perspectives which are polar opposites. I can respect Kudu's viewpoint, although so much different from mine

Holy Cow, and all this time I thought that Kudu was only mad at 21rst Century Wood Badge because of its concentration on Management and Organizational Skills. I never realized that when Kudu talks disparagingly about Wood Badgers and the Wood Badge Culture he was including all the Wood Badge Curriculums ever since 1972. I am sorry Kudu, I never understood at all until just now (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

As I don't associate the Red Beret with the death of scouting, I don't associate the Red Beret with the death of scouting. And again with the snazziness issue, actually a rhetorical query, anyone can play along. If the BSA came up with a "snazzy" uniform, and in this situation I define snazzy as distinctive, fashion forward, clean and modern and youth joined Boy Scouts just so they could wear the uniform, would that situation be wrong? OK, if Wood Badge Holders are responsible for that what we call the Red Beret, and the Red Beret came out in the early 70's then forsooth, Wood Badge has already been hijacked long long long before I took it and probably most of the forum posters. Hey guys, the one who took the version of Wood Badge just before Wood Badge for the 21rst Century, did you know your Wood Badge program sucked out as much as the 21rst Century version?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

A rhetorical quesiton if I may, How much slack will you cut the First Year Scout who has a knot signed off and can't tie it? How much slack do you cut a scout who is supposed to know the signs of a heart attack and can only come up with pain in the chest?

I think the Red Berets were/are cool and remember many good times I had while wearing one. I hope all youth who participate in the BSA or other youth program get as much enjoyment out of their time in the program of their choice as I did in the Boy Scouts. I did not know that looking snazzy and being skilled in scoutcraft were mutually exclusive attributes. You can certainly look snazzy and be in campsites 1500 feet away from each other. The snazziness of one's apparel should be the least of our concerns while presenting the program... hey, wait a minute..., Let me think about what I just said "The snazziness of one's apparel should be the least of our concerns while presenting the program" hmm. I am going to have to recontemplate this whole uniform thing again. "The snazziness of one's apparel should be the least of our concerns while presenting the program" Help!

I do not think the Red Beret was a finger in the eye of real scouting at all, I say it was pretty snazzy headgear introduced at the right time. I loved the Red Beret, I also love my Campaign hat, the field cap not so much as that is the one that never fit my head

To answer a straight question requires a straight answer: There is no provision/Requirement that a scout or his family cannot fund his Eagle Leadership Project, to say that a scout cannot use his own or family funds is adding to the rules and may not be done. OK, that's the straight BSA answer, the reality is, be sure you understand your enviroment and what it takes to complete Eagle. The last thing I would want is for you to tell your District Advancment Committee that this guy on the internet says I dom't have to follow your directions. I am not saying that at all

Ed, Xl is alerting us that Media outlets, at times, have their own agenda and don't always report things accurately and I thank him for his service

You know, in this discussion of uniforms and its application I am reminded of what Vasudeva told Siddhartha, that all things are cyclical. it wasn't all that long ago there was a fairly heated discussion on the forum about the Leave No Trace ethic, and I thought some posters made it pretty clear that unless all conformed to these posters' implementation of Leave No Trace, well then there was definately something lacking in that Troops program and in the Adults mentality. The way I look at it, whether its The Uniform Method or Leave No Trace, no two units will do it the exact same way, and while we may all wish everyone did things our/the right way, we may just have to accept the uniqueness that shapes ourselves and the units we serve

Shalom

lets see, 4 on 1, depriving someone of their mobility and sight, the terror of not knowing what will come next, feeling something sprayed on you, not knowing what it is for at least some period of time... Sounds intriguing, if it happened to you, what would you want done?

well actually, that people behave differently in uniforms is the reason the public schools in the south Florida Hollywood area require school uniforms Uniforms work, well school uniforms do, I am not so sure that the BSA has issues with its uniform as much as it has with its image. Back in the 60's Cub Scouts promised "to be square" even though years before then even the venerable Maynard G Krebs thought to be square was worse than "werk" (said with a hushed tremor of course) I was in the Roman Catholic Seminary in 1967-1970, that wasn't easy, going to school to be a priest? And an Eagle Boy Scout? I was a social leper, but enough about me In the greatest movie ever made, "Follow Me boys", even Whitey first says of the scouts " I don't want to go along with no daisy pickin' momma's boys" and that notion has stuck. If Boy Scouts were known to be doing exciting things, the uniform thing would disappear. But the question is, are we committed to offering a program that would entice youth to participate even if the pink tights and tutu's were required?

Just a couple of related Observations, some related to the uniform, and some not. We all agree that the methods of Boy Scouts are the following: Advancement Ideals Patrols Outdoors Adult Association Personal Growth Leadership Development Uniform And frequently we tell each other that these are the eight methods and none is more important than the other and the real goal is that the boys are enjoying the program and are we accomplishing the Mission. But, lets go through the methods once again, with my observations Advancement We frequently hear wails of disappointment that an Eagle can't tie a bowline and how horrible that is and how some troops are considered Eagle Mills and some Summer Camps are Merit Badge Factories. Are those who stress meeting the BSA requirements to the letter and say that no one may add or subtract from the requirements ever called the Advancement Police and told nobody should be so anal retentive as to expect any youth to actually do everything that is required? If you were known as part of the Advancement Police, would you be offended? Insulted? Ideals We sort of have a no tolerance attitude about this one. I think its safe to say no one thinks a scout who has fathered a child out of wedlock should be made Eagle. We may excuse one transgression if the scout is repentant and mends his ways, but we want to see the Ideals reflected in the scouts personal life, that is where Scout Spirit occurs. Are those who stress living up to the BSA Ideals to the letter ever called the Ideals Police and told nobody should be so anal retentive as to expect any youth to actually live the Oath and Law and that to Be Prepared and Do a Good Turn Daily are more like guidelines? If you were known as part of the Ideals Police, would you be offended? Insulted? Patrols The basic unit of scouting is the Patrol. Patrols come together to form troops, troops are not separated into Patrols. Still, many adults struggle with the boy-sun, patrol system. They think the adult lead troop method is much better. One regular poster here, Stosh, is having issues being a boy run troop and an adult lead troop is siphoning off members. Are those people who want to see the Patrol Method used in scouting ever called the Patrol Method Police? And told nobody should be so anal retentive as to expect any Troop to actually do the Patrol Method, 300 feet between patrol campsites et al? If you were known as part of the Patrol Method Police, would you be offended? Insulted? Outdoors There is a lot of talk about parlor scouts and Parlor Scouting and I think we are all pretty much against that. Scouting is Outing Are those who stress the Outdoor method ever called the Outdoor Police? And told nobody should be so anal retentive as to expect any Troop to actually have an Outdoor Program. If you were known as part of the Outdoor Scouting Police would you be offended? Insulted? Adult Association One of the benefits of the Merit Badge system is adult association and when troops teach merit badges as a class or have its scouts keep going to troop adults its decried as poor form. We talk about how part of the merit badge process is to have the youth contact the counselor and go to the counselor (with a buddy) outside of scouting and outside of the troop. Are those who stress Adult Association, ever called the Adult Association Police? And told that told nobody should be so anal retentive as to expect any youth do this? If you were known as part of the Adult Association Police, would you be offended? Insulted? Personal Growth We expect scouts to mature, to grow as people and I dont mean height. Are those who expect scouts to experience personal growth and emphasize it ever called members of the Personal Growth Police? And then be told that no one should be so anal retentive as to expect any youth to actually experience personal growth? If you were known as part of the Personal Growth Police, would you be offended? Insulted? Leadership Development We expect out scouts to develop Leadership. Well. Ok, at the very least to perform adequately in their Positions of Responsibility. Are those who expect a scout to do his job competently ever called Leadership development Police and told no one should be so anal retentive as to expect any youth to actually experience leadership Development? To actually fulfill the requirements of the Position of Responsibility? If you were known as part of the Leadership Development Police, would you be offended? Insulted? Uniform Apparently we have already pretty much done away with the uniform; it is a vestigial organ of times past. Units that use it are continuing a fine tradition. Units that dont, well, they dont

It may not help now, but the Troop Advancement Chart may be a decent investment for a troop at $2.99 each. When the book is signed off, the scout goes to the scribe or other designee and the completion is recorded for all to see, and to transcribe from if the book gets lost. http://www.scoutstuff.org/BSASupply/ItemDetail.aspx?cat=01RTL&ctgy=PRODUCTS&c2=BOOKS_LIT&c3=SUPPLIES&c4=&lv=3&item=34506

"Would you expect them to attend what a Jewish friend of mine called "a ceremony of ritual cannibalism"?" I am sure many friends of many faiths can charterize the practices of faiths other than their in many ways but I am trying to figure out what this revelation has with the topic at hand, help anyone?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Been to Camp School twice now, got my Camp School Certification card before I left both times. Are we talking The pocket card that says you are a Camp School graduate or some other certificate that may be comming from a non-BSA organization?

Just to assure the country its not just Scouters west of the Mississippi who can be crazy, check this http://abclocal.go.com/wpvi/story?section=news/local&id=6864524 Ever think canoeing on a flooded river is a good idea? especially when 2 kayakers drownwd in the same river the previous week and it rained since then?

Just to be clear to those who may wish to attend Wood Badge in the future, I did Wood Badge, admittedly long ago, 2001, so it was the wrong Wood Badge for some but I do not remember anyone saying Charactor = Uniform or anything like that at that time

You said you created a POR for the boy and he never did anything with it. Was he ever listed as holding that position? I do not beleive he should be an Eagle, but if he is listed as being in a POR for six months, you may have to explain why you ddint remove him before the six months was up if the youth appeals your decision. How long does the youth have until 18? I would make out a schedule for him with dates starting this week end, list the troop schedule, keep track of when he attends (sounds easier to tract his attendance than his no shows)Then when you are questioned in the youth's fitness for Eagle you can show what you did and his subsequent participation

I could see a switch to the uniform only being a hat of some kind, either the campaign hat, or the brimmed hat. Instead of rank patches, we would have pins and the scouts could wear their entire collection on the hat, from Scout to Eagle. Adults would have "knot pins" to place on their hat. The hat becomes the symbol of scouting, along with a necker of course. The back of the necker has the CSP and unit number.

In my experience, just mine mind you, Catholic mass usually takes an hour, a 2 hour mass should very very unusual, like maybe you stumbled a First Communion Mass or something like that

Actually I thought Karl Rove got blamed for all that because a certain segment of the population doesn't think Bush thout at all...