OldGreyEagle

speaking of pie, did you see that Soupy Sales died? Now there was a subversive guy

Not everyone has the panache and joie de vivre to wear and be comfortable in a Red Beret, those of us who do are presecuted by some others but it detracts not from our being. When I was a scout, after Brownsea Island but before the demise of the aforementioned and beloved Red Berets (Actually mid to late 60's) a full uniform was pretty much the rule at all the troop events and at District Activities. A few youth would try to wear jeans or other non-uniform dungarees and would be chastised by the adults. Adults who were generally WWII or Korean War vets who placed a good deal of emphasis on the uniform. As time as gone on, and those Vets were replaced by Children of the 60's. 70's et al, we see a change in the emphasis of clothing. The world series is being played this week, take a look at the dress of the fans in the stands. Compare them to films you see of baseball fans attending games in the 50's and 60's. White short sleeve shirts with ties will not be an uncommon site in those images. Perhaps a derby or a fedora as well with a "sport" coat. Will you see anyone in a tie in the stands today? Generally no, you don't unless its a team owner or high level exec, not on the common fan. The dress of the youth reflects the values of society, we are a much less formal society and this is reflected in our dress, why wouldnt this carry over to scouts? If set as an expectation then the youth comply as we have seen by examples on this forum. But generally it is not an expectation set by the unit OK Ok OK baseball uniforms are still worn, football uniforms, Band uniforms, etc, they are all worn but because its required. Perhaps when people start sitting in bleachers to watch a Troop Meeting, the uniform will make a comeback, until then? not sure

Nad by PIA, I am sure BadenP meant Professional Insurance Agency, or Parachite Industry Associate, or other such genteel accronym.

Don't give up Shortridge, you are not wrong. Just as our old pal Kudu would lament that an Eagle scout could acheive that rank and never carry a pack into the woods, plenty of Venturing regonitions may be earned without any outdoor experience, say the TRUST centered on Religious Life Crews, none of these requirements require a day in the outdoors, certainly they could be, but its not required. Then again the outdoors is not a method in Venturing, it is in Boy Scouts The QUEST award centered around Sports doesn't have any requirements that must be done in the outdoors, although many certainly could. Now, a Venturer could set a goal of earning all the Bronzes or all the higher level awards or only a few if any and that woudl be fine regardless of the interest the crew is registered as. The Crew I served was registered as an Outdoor Crew although we described ourselves as more Eclectic which I think describes most, although certainly not all and that's ok, eclectic or specific as long as the youth are driving the program. None of the Gold or Silver requirements "HAVE" to be done in the outdoors. Venturing is what the youth want, not what the adults wish it to be PS, of course when I say "What the youth want" I do mean within the context of the Guode to Safe Scouting and the program, I wouldnt let a Skateboarding Crew jump swimming pools filled with broken coke bottles or anything like that but I wouldnt require them to camp out either (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Step 1 A serious scoutmaster conference with the SPL on what constitutes adequately fulfilling the POR of Patrol Leader. Review the trainig the SPL was given concerning the evaluation of a Patrol Leaders performance, should it be revised, rewritten? Step 2 I would also look at the quality control devices, was the Patrol Leader evaluated at 1 month, 2 months, 3 et al? What can be done to assure such a thing never happens again? How are adults alerted to a poor performace of a POR before the term is up? Should that process change? Step 3 A serious discussion with the Patrol Leader himself. Ask him to give an honest appraisal of his leadership, with examples. He would have had to been a PL for at least 4 months if First Class to Star, six months for the others. Ask him what should be done, perhaps after reviewing the Scout Oath and Law Whatever you do, there are two issues, the poor performance of both SPL and PL and the same effort should be taken on both issues.

Then Again, a Crews whose main focus is Sports or Arts and Hobbies or Religious Life may have the same issues as the Science and Math Crew if they went camping. Venturing is not all about Treking across Denali in the dead of winter or running the Allagash in the Spring. There are those who think every Crew needs to have an "outdoors" component to the program and that is just not correct. Youth coming together to develop their own program and running that program with responsible adults, now that's Venturing

another option was to have another adult stay with you and help the SPL pack up, the second to last adult to leave, you being the last should have waited. I think it was Spock who said there are always alternatives

Bacchus beat me to it. It's on page 15 of the November/December Scouting Magazine under the sub-header "The Awards Available to Venturers" The final sentence reads: " Partly because Venturing is relatively new-it began in 1998- and partly because the program offers different options in its five areas of emphasis: outdoors, sports, arts and hobiies, religious life and math and science- a new award" OK, so much to mine from a single sentence. What happened to Sea Scouting? I kept hearing Sea Scouting was getting out from under the auspices of Venturing, I kept hearing that no, Sea Scouts was still part of Venturing and then in this issue, Venturing is discussed without any mention of Sea Scouting. Heck of a way to let the membership know- eh? And Math and Science, is that a new award? or a new area of interest? It's in a National magazine as a throw away line, in the words of the immortal Casey Stengel: "Can't anybody here play this game?"

Mike, check: http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/34283.pdf Under the heading shirt and neckwear you will find the following: "The troop/team may vote to wear a neckerchief, bolo tie, or no neckwear. In any case, the collar should be unbuttoned. The troop/team has the choice of wearing the neckerchief over the turned-under collar or under the open collar." I hate to quote actual BSA references as that appears to be an anathema to some, but if you are asking about something "official". I have a hard time answering without an official reference. personally, I wear my neckerchief over my collar which is not turned down (I'm a rebel and I'm no good, I'm a rebel and I never ever do what I should) because the reason the neckerchief was invented to keep dust off the neck and from seeping down the collar. PS, I am constantly amazed the most iconic part of theuniform, the world wide recognized symbol of scouting, the one thing that screams scouting, the neckerchief is optional in the BSA(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

When I do the Life to Eagle Seminar in the District I serve. I have the following slide: Most people receive about 18 years advanced warning of the date on which they will turn 18. It is never an emergency or an unexpected event. Truly, you can lead a Scout to the Advancment trough, after that he is on his own Doesnt mean I wont ask, beseech, besiege, call to, entreat, impetrate, implore, importune, invoke, nag, obsecrate, obtest, petition, plead, pray, press, requisition, solicit, sue, supplicate, urge, woo, worry and other wise annoy the scout about getting a project written up, planned or some other thing, but he has to do it

well thank you, (I think) Mr Saddle

Hey pack, did you read: "I now return yeh to the regular banter of book quoting and folks who will call your local youth volunteers jerks." As I was one to banter on about the quoting of books I can only surmise this was at least obliquely directed at me. I didnt call any youth volunteer a jerk as far as I remember and I think I even said that the youth should comply, what was it I said? Oh yes: "The easier way, of course, is to be sure who ever is asked for a reference, does it immediately and the scout stays on topof the situation and doesnt rest until the letters are in. Remember, these are for the references listed on the Eagle Application, these are not for additional references. Eagle is so close, I would do everything I could to not make it a rule book debate, but I have laid out the rules, as I interpret them, as a reference." I thought I was doing a service in providing the BSA Literature quote, you asked if I had a chip on my shoulder, I think the why is obvious

Check out From "Dr. Lou" Holtz in the Scoutmaster's Minute section, that's a good starter. The troop I serve had quite the language problem when I joined up, seems the adults were so inutred to it, they didnt realize it was an issue. I commented that the boys language was quite raw and they said they hadn't noticed, the next campout when a few expletives floated out I pointed it out and the others agreed I had a point. So, I challanged the boys, told them not to say anything they wouldnt repeat in forn of their mothers. Until I met a few salty tongued mom's who would have done the Navy proud,. Actually, I think a few of them did. So, I challenged them again, told them they were free to use any word they heard me use. The worst part was the next outing, an Eagle Project and I dropped some timbers on my foot. I swear (non-profanely of course) the whole job site went silent as the boys strained to hear what I would exclaim. I knew it and said OUCH. Took a few corrections but it settled down. I remarked to my son that the languse improved, he said, yeah but only when adults are around, I told him thats ok, it means the kids "know" what the standards are and thats the important part.

Thank you for your councern Pack, not any bigger chip than the norm

"where the quality of the program can vary widely from town to town and structure is occasionally lacking." and this differs from Boy and Cub Scouting how?

Kids may be attracted to fast paced techo lifestyle, but I am not sure what attracts them is THAT contrary to the basics of the Boy Scout Program. The popularity of the X games shows that youth will put down the game contraol remote, if you give them reason Whether or not I or my colleagues are savy enough to integrate factors of the X-games generation and those activities to the BSA program is the question

Even as you read this, some where the surgeon who just did enough to graduate from his Surgery Residency is scheduled to do surgery, perhaps in 5 minutes, maybe tomorrow, perhaps next week, but that surgeon is still a recognized, licensed surgeon. Whatever minimum that was attained, was attained by those doing the supervision and we all hope their standards are "high Enough" for the safety of future patients. When you say the scout just got by, was he "good enough" or not? If he was, he didn't just "get by" he fulfilled the requirements as judged by someone else. If you think the "stunt" he pulled is unworthy of an Eagle and the paperwork has already gone in be sure the Eagle Board of Review knows about the situation. A scout may sit for an Eagle Board of Review without a Scoutmaster signing off on the application, although again, the members of the BOR should know the circumstances of the situation. The kid screwed up, is it enough to rescind his membership in your unit? Suspend him? Was he Eagle quality before this happened?

Not that I would ever want to be an obnoxious, pompous, arrogant, pedantic, closeminded bookthumper, but this is taken from number 6 on the 12 Steps to Eagle found in the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook: 6. When the completed application is received at the council service center, its contents will be verified and the references contacted. The Scout shall have listed six references (five if no employer, and parent if no organized religious association). The council advancement committee or its designee contacts the references on the Eagle Scout Rank Application by letter, form, or telephone checklist. (The council determines the method or methods to be used.) The candidate should have contacted those individuals listed as references before including their names on the application. If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references. The candidates should not be involved personally in transmitting any correspondence between persons listed as references and the council service center or advancement committee. If the initial reference letter or form is not returned to the council in a timely manner, the council advancement committee must make direct contact with the reference(s) listed on the Eagle Scout Rank Application on its own, by follow-up letter, phone contact, or other methods as it chooses. The candidate shall not be required to make a follow-up contact with the reference or submit other reference names. A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered. Since the Council may decide how the references are to be checked, they may require the Eagle Candidate to ask for letters, this is covered in the sentence "If desired by the council, the candidate may be asked to deliver a blank reference form and envelopes to the listed references." it also means the Council has to have blank reference forms and envelopes. So, asking for reference letters is possible and a BSA approved practice. Now, it also says "A Scout cannot have a board of review denied or postponed because the council office or council advancement committee does not receive the reference letter forms he delivered" So I guess you have to have someway of documenting the scout delivered the blank reference fom and envelope. The easier way, of course, is to be sure who ever is asked for a reference, does it immediately and the scout stays on topof the situation and doesnt rest until the letters are in. Remember, these are for the references listed on the Eagle Application, these are not for additional references. Eagle is so close, I would do everything I could to not make it a rule book debate, but I have laid out the rules, as I interpret them, as a reference.

I frequently hear that Wood Badge is just recycled management theory and the same stuff is presented at so many different Mangement seminars and the stuff is so old hat and I just burn inside. Not every scouter occupies a Management Position. Not every scouter has had an opportunity to attend employee development courses. Many Scouters only perk from year to year is that they are allowed to continue their employment. If you work in a position that Wood Badge, Win all you can games and the like are just so much a rehash for you, resolve to help those for whom this is new ground, it would seem to be the scouty thing to do

Last weekend (Oct 16-17-18)was the Disitrct I serves Fall Camporee. We don't have a Spring Camporee any more as no one will put it together. We sorta had a system of rotating troops who would organize it, but it seems like the same three troops have done the last 6 and they didnt want to continue so the OA organized this one. of course, with the OA organizing, the older boys are off staffing, not helping their younger members. I was helping in my Shooting Sports Role, I was the RSO and another scouter was the NRA instructor. We were talking about the next Fall Camporee and I suggested that perhaps a Patrol Method Theme would be a good idea. From the time they hit the Camporee Parking Lot until they pack up the stuff, they functin as patrols. No Camping as a Troop, they camp as a patrol. Everything was to be done by patrol. My buddy listened, his eyes brightened at my suggestion, but then said he doubted any troop in the Disitrct had one patrol who could function that way. I wept I repeated my idea to the OA Chapter Advisor who wasnt sure if we had the Patrols camp as patrols, how the troops would know who was where. I didnt tell him the patrols should be 300 feet apart. The whole Troop/District dynamic is a fun one. Unless the District can do "fun exciting" things then why should troops attend Disitrct functions, yet the Disitrct is composed of the Troops wanting the District to provide fun exciting events. It does seem like a vicious cycle. We have people who virtually dare the District to organize things but will not help to organize because its not their job. Maybe it isn't but sniggering off in a corner how poorly run things are does nothing to improve the situation either.

What does NYLT say about Duty Rosters and the Patrol Leader?

I realize this is my own Observation, so if its not like this in your neck of the woods, be glad, be very very glad I do not think those parents under the 40 year old mark (give or take a few years) have the volunteer ethic. They have raised their children in a culture, where when you taken the little darlings to their "activity" the most strenuos thing you have to do it open the car door. Whether it's dance class at Ms Zaki's House of Ballet or doing ceramics at Suzy's Ceramics or Soccer or Little Mites Football, parents dump off their kids and then show up when practice is over. Game day might require running the refreshment stand once per season, but that's about it. THey expect the same at Scouts, what? In Cubs I have to do things with my child? If I wanted to actually DO things with my boy, I wouldnt have had him join Cub Scouts, we would have done things together The American Legion, VFW, Lions and Rotary Clubs, (where I live) are begging for members, the "younger generation" does not volunteer (as a whole now, there are exceptions). Whether because they just don't have that value or it was never expected of them, I don't know. They just don't want to get involved outside of their own life. Teachers out there, how many parents show up at Teacher Conferences? Versus 5-10 years ago or further back? Has our culture lost the volunteer ethic and respect for those who do volunteer. I am not a paid member of the Chartering Institution's Youth Programs, no one is

Shane Victorino of the World Champion Philadelphia Phillies is an Eagle Scout

One thing to remember is that as a result of attending Camp School, the Camp School atendees take the NRA test for Shotgun, Rifle, and Muzzle loading so its not like the Camp School curriculum is something the BSA came up with, its the NRA curriculums run back to back to back with Archery thrown in as well. All of the programs require live fire sequences so some expereince may be had, and in the class I took, the instructors set up situations to test the students reactions and how to handle situations. NO, no firearm was ever pointed at anyone. All of the attendees in my class passed all the NRA tests and received a Camp School card as well

Living Bethlehem, PA, and serving a Troop sponsored by a Moravian Church, I know somethng of the Lenai Lenapes. Bethlehem is the home of the Northern Province of the Moravian Church in North America. The District Chair works for the Northern Province. In a downtown cemtery, knows as God's half acre, are the graves of some of the first Bethlehem residents. In true Moravian style, the males on one side and the women on the other. On the men's side is the grave of a Lenai, known as John. He is purported to be the model of Chingachgook in John Fenimore Cooper's "the leather stocking tales". Very cool set of books. Then again, Treasure island is just down the Delaware a bit, not as far as Washington's Crossing