OldGreyEagle

In trying to keep from mixing apples and oranges, I have never called LDS units "Ghosts" that is not a term I have used, that I recall. I had thought some of these reasons for this thread being revived and the other LDS related thread was because you wanted to know why LDS scouting is thought of the way its thought of. And you have had many answers. If you feel ganged up on, I cannot speak for the others but that was not my intent. You wanted reasons for why some feel as they do, and you got them.

I must say I am a bit flummoxed here I thought it was the duty of scouters to support and respect the decisions of others who volunteer their time and efforts to running the BSA program and not critique their performamce based on a few lines in an obscure internet forum. "Schedule a few extra Merit Badge Mill days? Promote a T-2-1-in-a-weekend event? Require a troop to have patrols no bigger than 4 so that there are more Patrol Leaders earnin' time-in-POR? Start giving out money for each rank a lad makes? " These all seem pretty mocking to me

A Long Long Long time ago in a place far far away, I was in a managerial position which required annual employee appraisals. One of the worst ratings I had to give was "ethics". While I have met several people over my lifetime who I think would qualify as having questionable ethics, I have never met anyone who stepped up to me and said, hey you know I am unethical. Everyone is ethical to their state of mind. The whole question of the BSA "lowering their moral standard" implies you think accepting gays and atheists as lowering the moral standard. And to several people it may undeed seem so. But what do you tell the people who think that if the BSA allowed Gay and Atheist memebers would instead be "Raising thier moral standard" Aye there is the rub

I serve on the District and Council Advancement Committee. One of the focuses of late is to look at every unit and keep track of their "Percentage of Advancement". This is because each Scout advancing a rank a year is a stated Council Goal. Each year the Centennial Unit forms come out and Troops must set "Advancement Goals" for their unit. 60% of Units must meet their Advancement goals for the District to qualify for a Centennial District and then 60% of all units must meet their Advancement Goals to have the Council meet the criteria for Centennial Council. (N.B. the Centennial Program replaced the Quality unit, district, council program a few years back) Most Troops set 50% as their goal as the younger scouts may earn 2-3 ranks a year but then as they get to the higher ranks, a rank a year isnt as likley. I am not sure how the LDS units do this. If they register say 25 youth and only 10 participte, if all 10 advance one rank a year, then they are at 40%. Thats if all 10 active advance. Now, if 5 scouts advance, that is 50% of the Active youth but only 20% of the registered youth. How does a District with several LDS troops reach Centennial status? I guess they could set a 20% Advancement goal, while the non-LDS troops set 50%, but that just seems wrong that troops have advancement expectations based on the CO's registration patterns. Getting Centennial District a a big deal in the Council I serve, it is a critical acheivement for the DE, making it a very big deal Edited Note: Bando, the local option would not require a LDS troop to accept gay leadership. While I am for the local option, I in no way want to force any unit to accept gay leaders, that issue is for the CO to decide, who to pick to run the program, thats the local in local option. Just as CO's can determine if they will be closed to only select members of the community (IE their faith) they get to decide adult leadership criteria within BSA standards(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Seems you can't sell liquor on election day either in Colorado, perhaps a vestigal rule left over from buying votes with a beer and a promise by the politicians that life would change for the better... Seems like those people got a better deal, we still have politicians promise a better life but the other guys at least got a beer But back on track, As a catholic I will attend a Scouts Own, but I also must attend Mass. Back when I took Wood Badge we had a Catholic Scouter who ended up on the committee to put together the Scouts Own for Sunday and he resigned from the group saying he couldn't in good conscience participate in such an endeavor. I volunteered to take his place. People who knew me asked why if the catholic I was replacing had an issue with Scouts Own, why didnt I. I replied I would still be going to Mass and that participating in the Scouts Own was praying with other Scouters, I didnt see anything wrong with that. Sometimes prespective is everything, but then I wouldn't denigrate the guy who quite, we must follow our own "Fonzarelli Code" whatever it is for us(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Scoutfish, all auto dealers in Pennsylvania are closed on Sunday in observance of the "Blue Law" that no motorized vehicle be sold on Sunday, no matter your "state of faith" Then again in Pennsylvania we hold onto our guns and bibles So, it seems the people of Pennsylvania do not regard Sunday as just another day of the week

"...On the other side of the coin, non-LDS for the most part seem to believe Sunday is just another day of the week." Awful prescient of you, isn't this? You presume to know the attitudes of Non-LDS towards Sunday? How large a sample size have you taken? What was your instrument of measurement?

INDEED! What does the manner of adult leader selection of a specific unit have to do with the way scouting is run in everybody's individual units?

heck no, I will try again We have had churches, and they may be just the specific congregations in this area drop charters because of the Homosexual and Atheist Policy that is all. Who said anything about Gay and Atheist led units? You say you don't have authority to speak for the LDS church about any changes to BSA policy and I understand that. But you should know steeped in the Lore and Urban Legends of scouting is a story about how a Representative of the LDS Church told a group of National Professionals that the LDS would withdraw their members and support of the BSA if the Homosexual and Atheist policy ever changed. Have you in LDS scouting heard the same story? I think that one story is the source of a lot of irritation. You said you wouldnt want to be in a camp where other leaders don't share your values. The Troop I serve goes to one of our Council's Camps. This camp will have several Out of Council Troops in it as well as a healthy supply of in Council Troops. I have never bothered to prepare dossiers on all the adults who will be in Camp that week to assure that all will share my same values. In the past I went with the thought if they were in Boy Scout Camp we must be similar enough in values to be togehter for the week of summercamp(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I do beleive one source of issues that LDS scouting has that several non-LDS scouters chafe at is the stance on Homosexual and Atheist Leaders. It has been repeated many times, and I am not sure if it's ever been denied,that if the BSA were to go to the "Local Option", that is, allowing Chartering Organizations to choose the Adult Leadership for their units, thus making possible Homosexual or Atheist Leaders that LDS would withdraw all support and membership of the BSA. If you can refute this, or comfirm it I would appreciate it. While no Atheists or Homosexuals may be supported in the LDS church, there are several Chartering Organizations, which are based on Religion that allow Homosexual Clergy. It may be tough to recruit scouts in a Church where the Pastor cannot meet the membership requirments. If a unit is in a heavily LDS area, I guess I can see it. In the Council I serve there is one, one mind you LDS unit while several churches have dropped charters based on the BSA's discriminatory position on adult leadership. While there is virtually no LDS prescence, they still effect the COuncil's Membership and that is a source of irritation. If I am wrong, then I am wrong and will apologize (unlike some who say they will apologize and then "forget" it when proven wrong) What would happen to the LDS prescense in the BSA if the Local Option were adopted?

Actually, the answer is right in front of us and has been mentioned. All Chartering Organizations need to find their voice, vote their values and make their desires known. I dont necessarily like the LDS influence in Scouting, but there is an answer, organize your CO's and have them take part in the process otherwise its like the Whigs saying its not fair that the Tories are so well organized, or the Tories saying its not fair the Whigs are so well organized. From the best I can tell, the LDS is playing by the rules. I may not like the results (and I don't) but if they follow the rules, then we must as well. What have you done to strengthen you CO relationship today?

I would respond by asking the family to check the PRAY Website and look for the Religious award for Buddhist Scouts called the Sangha Award. I was attended a Buddhist worship service at the National Jamboree in 2001(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

"...and so it should be since the LDS is the oldest CO (1913), has the highest number of units, the largest number of members, and is the largest contributor of funds" See, it's just that attitude of what some may call arrogance that turns off non-LDS scouters and allows misinformation to perist and morph into all sorts of wrong impressions. So, because you (LDS) is the 800 pound gorilla sitting in the middle of the living room, you can't be ignored and get to do what you want because after all that is the reward for being the biggest and wealthiest contributor? Can we make that the official LDS position on scouting, that of "we bought you guys so toe the line"? This has been a rather respectful discussion so far, I would like to keep it that way and if I misunderstood, I your meaning I will apologize, but what did you mean by "and so it should be since the LDS is the oldest CO (1913), has the highest number of units, the largest number of members, and is the largest contributor of funds"?

Was this the same campout that the young lad chose to go to while having an assignment due on Tuesday?

so Eagle92, your cross section of experience with LDS Troops are that some were run well, some were not, some followed the program some did not. Can you compare that experience with Roman Catholic, Baptist, Methodist or VFW's who sponsored units, how did each of those categories compare to the LDS experience?

May we have thoughts based on facts and direct experience? We don't need introspection on "What I have heard" or "What I always thought"

dg98adams, I agree with you. Dropping a tent on a sleeping scout teaches others that they can mess around with another's property if they have "just cause". And somehow, I dont think this is a good thing Having said that,the sleeper does need to face consequences of his action, or inaction as the case may be. Lots of things can be done that does not involve touching another's property

Have you ever had them research where the boxer showing "fashion" trend came from?

"Somehow the BSA in the 1960s was supposed to give this issue the very high priority that it now receives in 2010." Perhaps had the Catholic Church given this issue the high priority that it now receives in 2010 in the 1960's, I wouldn't be the weirdzo-mobile I turned out to be, the hell of it is, we will never know, will we? (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Gern, the motivation of the Tea Partiers is easy to understand. After every election there is one side know as the winners, and there is another side known as the losers. From what I can tell the role of the losers is to moan,complain, and generally fret about everything that the winners do. Don't worry, its not a recent phenomenon, its been around since there have been elections. Now, I can't say I wanted to have Obama as president, but he was elected and he is president. But not to think that there is some segment of the population who will never accept him does not consider the whole of political experience. Those currently in power have a choice to make. They can ridicule, deride, insult and belittle those who lost and who demonstrate their ire, or they can try to understand why they think the way they do, or at the very least, they can respect their right to hold opposing views. Think of how you would feel if your side lost an election, how would you want your opinions treated? And then extend that treatment to the current losers. As politics tend to run in cycles, why wouldnt you want to treat the losers as you want to be treated when you are the loser as odds are, losing will happen, as will winning and the beat goes on...

The bigger issue is one of veracity. The original poster was pretty well attacked and critized and run-down as a fraud and a faker and a whole lot of other things. Some were of the opinion this was all fantasy and the product of someone needing attention. From the posts here so far, I beleive this is a true and actual case, as I did from day 1. I would think some sincere heartfelt apologies are in order. It doesnt matter what you think of the appeal's result, it matters how we treat others

interesting thoughts Studentscout, but if a society cages anything, then everything CAN be caged People get to beleive anything they wish, as long as those beliefs do not deprive another from theirs, and I know that is prelude to a lot...

Gentlemen, Let me say that I loved the Wood Badge course I took and heartily reccommend Wood Badge to anyone who thinks they might be interested There are not many times you meet as many people as excited about scouting as you meet in Wood Badge. I took Wood Badge for the 21rst Century and was kinda derided for it in my District as it wasn't the Real Wood Badge. Then it was pointed out to me here that unless one took Wood Badge before 1972 (I think I have the year correct) you didn't take real Wood Badge anyway. I took Wood Badge because I noticed at Roundtables there would be discussions about various things, such as what theme for the District DInner, I would say, Space Travel and the discussion would move on. A minute or so later some guy wearing beads would say I think the theme should be Space Travel and he would be aclaimed a Creative Genius. After this happened a few times, well more than a few times, I decided if I wanted a voice in the District I would have to get beads. Along the way I had a great time. Having a safeguarded Wood Badge area would only fuel some of the poor attitudes some scouters have about Wood Badged Scouters. Now I know this attitude is supposed to change. National has recognized the elitist notions and is working to change it, but change is slow. I am very glad I did Wood Badge and would do it again even if it meant I didnt find a voice in District Affairs (BTW, I am now heard in District Meetings)

No she did not, I asked if she would let us know when she received and answer and she did There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy Hamlet Act I, Scene V

OK, I see your point and would not like it either. We had a similar issue when I first joined the Troop. The current adult leadership said they did not "hear" the language I objected to. Then one time on an outing while I was talking about the poor vocabulary choice, a well rounded "F" came flying out and everyone agree it was an issue. So, for a scoutmaster minute, I challemged the scouts to only use language they would use in front of their mothers, then one a scout said some vulgar things, I approached him and reminded him of the challenge, he said his mother said that word all the time, and I found he was right. So I challenged them to only use words they have heard me use. And it worked. Although there was the one time when I hit my thumb with a hammer during an Eagle Project, every head was craned my direction like the old EF Hutton commcercials. I held on and said ouch, only much louder. Changing troop vocabulary can happen, but all adults have to buy in