OldGreyEagle

Lemuel Siddons: How can I rest? Who's going to finish building the camp out at the lake? Who's gonna get the free lumber and who's gonna get the free labor? Will you two stop "Lem"ing me? Who's gonna see that everything's ready for dedication day? Who's going to coordinate all the activities and who's going to... Edward 'Whitey' White Jr. - as an Adult: Lem, the Troop Committee will handle all that. Lemuel Siddons: Oh, the Troop Committee, they'll gob everything up!

"A similar BUT DIFFERENT course could be developed for Cub Scout leaders, and a third for Venturing leaders. I feel that such a setup would be far superior to what we've reduced ourselves to with WB21C." I agree with the need for three advanced programs, the key issue I beleive is having staff that could provide the three disparate programs of training. I think thats why we ended up with what we have, staffing issues

I did not realize B-P himself coined the term Parlour Scouting and that he recognized the "numerous regulations" culture of the BSA as a threat to scouting as far back as 1927

"I want him to know that he has it in him to hand down a skill to someone else." I agree(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Well, Like I have been saying, EDGE is a tool. Thats it, a tool. If you don't like it and have alternatives, use them. If you don't like it and have no alternatives, do what serves your youth best. In the end, that's the only thing that counts

Eagle92, I get to say this once or so a year I think you are being a little rough on the Beavah... Beavah makes a good point, what about Merit Badge Counselors, or rather people who "Counsel" a merit badge and have never been approved by the Council/District to Counsel that badge and then when called on it, say "What, you are going to punish the youth?" People have to be accountable, don't they? Then again, did the Scoutmaster and ASM know this was the Committee position before they left on the trip? I hate when the youth are fodder for adult games

"Cognitive Dissonance" Hey think I know this one, its when you try to blame everything you can on a principle used out of context. Like saying Soccer is boring and give the Infield Fly Rule as an example BTW "Your Username is "Twocubdad." Maybe Cub Scout training is why you do NOT believe that removing the Patrol and the Patrol Leader from the "Patrol Method" is significant?" "Your Username is "NJCubScouter." Maybe Cub Scout training is why you do NOT believe taking "Patrol Leader Training" away from Patrol Leaders and replacing it with "Manager of Learning" lessons is significant?" Is that an example of "Ad Hominem" attacks? I get mighty confused at times

"Executives have the most horrible job possible. Who among us wants to go ask for money to pay our own salary? It's not an enviable position." Exactly, well said, But that being well said, would it not be in the best interest of those asking for the money to show how well that money is spent? If I receive value for my money, I am satisfied, when I do not receive value for my money, I start to re-evaluate where my money goes, and I do not beleive I am that much different that everyone else

Beavah said: "Kids mostly learn by watching and example and trying,..." Beavah, what you describe is the Demonstrate Guide and Enable part of EDGE. First you explain what you are going to do such as Boys, I am gonna teach you how to build a fire Then you talk about the components of a fire, the tinder, Kindling and fuel while showing them examples of each. Its not all lecture, its the instructor and the scouts sitting/standing around a fire circle. They watch and listen while you build a fire, telling them why you start with tinder, then kindling and fuel. You show them once and then invite them to do as you demonstrated, you watch them, coach when needed and then have them do it themselves All interactive, no lecture just you building a fire and then they do the same. Doesnt not sound boring to me

"EDGE is a tool, the same as an Axe, Compass, or stove. No it's not." Well. I think EDGE is a tool, so in this case it's a difference of opinion, and that's OK "EDGE is imaginary: What scientific proof do you have that belief in EDGE has ever taught anything to anybody anywhere better than, say, a belief in leprechauns? " Well, No, EDGE is not imaginary, it's an Educational Model that is easy to remember for those who need to teach skills. "Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable campsite selection" Heck thats easy, one youth explains what comprises a good campsite, shows them a good site, has them pick a good campsite with his help if needed then he sees of the patrol can find one thats one on their own "Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable a fire" I don't know how to enable a fire, but I would have the youth teach HOW to build a fire, by explaining the steps, demonstrating the steps, watching the parol build a fire of their own with advice if required and then have them start a fire of their own without help. No Problem "Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable their food;" I have no idea how to enable food. But I would have the youth teach HOW to cook food, what comprises a good camp meal. Demonstrate how to cook it with camp equipment, guide the patrol thorugh cooking a meal and then have them cook their own meal, Sounds Simple "Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable a map" Never heard of enabling a map, but explaing how to read a map, demonstrating how maps are oriented, guiding the patrol to use the map and then have them use the map on their own, yeah I can see that "Explain, Demonstrate, Guide, Enable a compass" Again, since a compass is inanimate not sure how to enable it, I can see how a youth would explain how a compass works and why we use it, demonstrate how to use the compass and then help the patrol use a compass and then have them do a compass course, yeah I could see that. Using EDGE does not replace the scout skills, its a plan of how to impart scouting skills to a patrol that does not have them. The Scouting Skills are still central to advancement, EDGE is a tool. If you don't think EDGE is a tool, well heck that's your opinion and I can live with that "Hike them a mile into the woods. Have them to select a campsite and make a fire. If they select a stupid campsite, tell them it's a stupid campsite and have them figure out why. If they can't make a fire, have them yell out in the dark at the top of their Leave a Trace voices: " Not sure how yelling at scouts is, well, scoutlike. Sounds rather silly and mean at the same time, I'll pass "Then make another fire and stamp it out again until each and every Patrol Leader can start a fire while chanting: "Learning just happens, Start a fire and vent it; Learning just happens, A leader can't prevent it." Be sure to record how long it takes each Scout to start a fire. Use candy to bribe them to sing or rap the Compass Bear Song around Friday's campfire. Compass Bear Song: http://www.inquiry.net/outdoor/skills/map_compass/index.htm On Saturday morning bring out the Leprechaun Treasure Map and have them use a compass to find the all Lepricon Treasures that you previously stashed (a generous lunch and candy, lots of candy). That is candy hidden in as many trees marked on the Leprechaun Treasure Map as you have Junior Leaders. Do some leprechaun tracking, following the leprechaun tracks in the dirt you left previously. (Unlike EDGE, Tracking is part of the 1916 Scoutcraft program required by our Congressional Charter). At the Saturday campfire, hand out the stupid "Official Leadership Position Cards that define each position in the troop." Tell the Scouts what they are, but forbid them to read them or to ever discuss among themselves what their job is. Tell them that the purpose of Leadership Position Cards is to start fires. Prove to them how useful Leadership is by timing how long it takes them to start a fire by burning Leadership Position Cards and then compare that time to how long it took them to start the fire on Friday night without using the TLT course materials." The Acronym, EDGE refers to Explain, Demonstrate, Guide and Enable. How that translates to the above passage I don't understand. Having the patrols go out, alone with a map of the area to look for Leprechauns now that sounds like fun, if any patrol finds one, I would imagine Notre Dame would pony up Scholarships for the lot I would copy section 4, but I would have to understand it to comment on it and I don't Sorry PS Whats the reference for not allowing Scouts to talk about their positions? I missed that(This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)

""It is contrary because as B-P says in the audio clip, "but remember that you can not give them character through ordinary classroom methods."" I am not sure I ever said teaching scouts about EDGE, or any educational tool was the same as teaching or giving them character. EDGE is a tool, the same as an Axe, Compass, or stove. It is the duty of the Patrol Leader to bring his Patrol up to the skill level of going on Patrol Outings. To do this, he will have to teach/impart/demonstrate/show skills he has and wants to have the members of his patrol to have. EDGE gives him a plan to do this training. It's not the only Educational Model, perhaps some know of Blooms Taxonomy but I digress. I am not sure about all areas in the country but the Junior High and Senior High Schools in my area do not teach instructional methodology. EDGE gives a Patrol Leader a plan to teach his patrol members how to select a campsite, make a fire, cook food, read a map and perform orienteering. Just because a scout has those aforementioned skills does not mean he has an understanding of how to pass along his knowledge. Having the ability and skills to lead a Patrol to do an Outing free of adults and getting it done, now shows character! Having a skill does not translate to having the ability of teaching a skill. "Baden-Powell did not list "Leadership" as a goal of Scouting.Character" was the direct result of REAL Scoutcraft Competency: I am not sure I listed "Leadership" as a goal of Scouting, what I said was: "I fail to see how teaching Leadership Principles and educational techniques..." I am not sure how you surmised I was making teaching Leadership Principles a goal of scouting. I never said that, I said I fail to see how teaching Leadership Principles and educational techniques are contrary with B-P's principles. I did not mention changing any goal of scouting. The following statements are what B-P says about character in the speech "Its school of character of citizenship, of personal efficiency for the good of the community." "But remember, you cannot give them character through ordinary classroom methods" "Their moral character is developed by our method of self government under a code of chivalry in the Scout law." "Their spiritual character is developed by their being brought face to face with the wonders and beauties of nature." "Character is far more essential to a successful career of a man." "Character in its individual members is essential for the character of the nation." "And character in the nation is similarly essential to its welfare." "As a school of character therefore, the Scout movement is non-military, non-sectarian, non-political and non-class." I don't see any comment connecting the statement: "Baden-Powell did not list "Leadership" as a goal of Scouting.Character" was the direct result of REAL Scoutcraft Competency:" with anything B-P said regarding character Please tell me where B-P either says or implies character is the result of REAL Scoutcraft competency (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

who said the land would have to be cleared? OOH OOH it is 300 feet, which is not the title of this thread which is 300 yards would be a bit much, then again if the area could accomodate it, why not? Each piece of terrain would be unique, a one campsite plan fits all approach would seem to be unlikley

Actually I had always thought that B-P was a master of scouting skills/outdoor skills AND YET he was also a Lieutenant-General (read that as a higher ranking leader) in the British Army. One would think that Leadership skills and his outdoormanship must have both been assets in his Military Career http://www.thescoutingpages.org.uk/audio/mp3/bptalks/bp_public.mp3 The above is a link to B-P talking to "the Public" about Boy Scouts, note how many times he talks about Boy Scouts being a School for Charactor and that scouts are training to be Good Citizens I fail to see how teaching Leadership Priciples and educational techniques such as EDGE is contrary to what B-P is taking about, but then again, its only my opinion

This is old ground, but only if you have been over it before Youth are not Gay, Straight, Bi, etc (I said etc because I listed the sexual orientations I am know of, there may be more) They are youth, I do not want anyone, either Gay, Straight, or Bi telling tales of their sexual adventures. We just have scouts and all should be regarded as such Adult leader criteria should be left up to the CO, they are the franchise owners, they decide who delivers the program. I would also be sure the CO is at least as responsible as the BSA for any lawasuits involving the behavior of a leader. They hold the power, they should also hold responsibility. Of course, perhaps they already do and I dont know it, it happens Reverence? We teach that all beliefs are respected. Thats it

LOL GMTA BFFS

Well, firsr of all, two things Habitat certainly does stand for something. The Chartering Organization of the Crew and Troop I am a member of has been doing a Habitat for Humanity Trip for the last 10 years. The youth and adults who make that trip certainly feel Habitat stands for something. Perhaps you don't agree, and that ok Second, after reading the posts on the thread "Does National Care" which is just a few posts of being moved here itself (not that there is anything wrong with that) I was about to suggest the same thing. A poll of adult BSA members concerning membership standards. The results would be, to say the least , interesting. Of course no matter how it went, there would always be comments on the "losing" side that the poll was fixed. I would be interested in a poll if not for any other reason than to get the dialogue started. Perhaps just a survey of CO's. Just let us know what the truth is I could live with any result

personally, growing up in the Mid west I saw a lot of Ohio State University Football games. Back then, before the half time "studio shows" you actually saw the half time band performance. I loved the Golden Girl of Purdue and you guys do know that the big drum that Texas has "Big Bertha" originally came from the University of Chicago. It got Radiologically contaminated during the first "controlled" radioactive chain reaction underneath the grandstands of Stagg Field and somehow Texas got ahold of it but I digress. BTW, Purdue has quite the large drum as well Personally, I always wanted to the Tuba player who got to dot the I in the Script Ohio number. Not playing the Tuba always did hold me back

I guess it was just a matter of time before this would get moved to the Politics and Issues section, Just a thought, Habitat for Humanity is an organization that just about everybody respects. They are a Christian Organization. Take a look at their Website and you see the following: Habitat for Humanity International is a nonprofit, ecumenical Christian organization. We are dedicated to eliminating substandard housing and homelessness worldwide and to making adequate, affordable shelter a matter of conscience and action. Our ministry was founded on the conviction that every man, woman and child should have a simple, decent place to live in dignity and safety. They make no bones about it, Habitate is a Christian Ministry, then later on the same page they say: Habitat has an open-door policy: All who desire to be a part of this work are welcome, regardless of religious preference or background. We have a policy of building with people in need regardless of race or religion. We welcome volunteers and supporters from all backgrounds. Jesus's name is mentioned on the page and in the picture of an under construction house is a bible http://www.habitat.org/how/christian.aspx Yet as far as I can tell, no one boycotts Habitat because of its religious principles and foundation and receives no bad press because it uses phrases like "Theology of the Hammer" Do you think the BSA could learn anything from Habitat for Humanity? PS I am not saying that the BSA is a Christian Organization, or that it should label itself as such. I think the BSA should say it is an Organization with a religious foundation that is open to all(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

apparently all academics is local as well. I mentioned GPA because scouts have told me the colleges they were applying to wanted to see high grades in Band if they were in band because it meant the student honored a committment. I guess it would have been better if they werent in band,then they wouldnt have to have a high grade in it but then they would be short extra-curricular activities BTW, being Eagle was seen as a plus as well, but not at the expense of a high Band grade. Then of course the scout could have been untruthful. I can only go on what I have been told

But before I drop off the deep edge, I have to add. A few years back in one year two of the most High Schools in the area with the most highly regarded bands had their Drum Majors (Yeah, the guy in the big hat waving that sceptre thing while walking forwad with his chest parallel to the ground)earn Eagle Last year the starting Fullback of the Liberty High School Hurricaines, Pennsylvania State CHampions earned Eagle Somehow, Scouts do, at times, appeal to the bightest and best is it the Program of the way its delivereid?

Band members often receive academic grades for their participation Scouts do not receive academic grades for participation So,the trombonist struggling to get into college will not jeopardize his grade by blowwing off a Football game or Halloween Parade to go Camping as he needs the highest GPA he can get Not that I like it, but it is reality

CA, I don't plan on closing this thread, as to do so could possibly give some a reason to say that as a Moderator I control the direction of threads. edited: Other Moderators are free of course to exercise their own judgement(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Sorry if you think being labeled a bully is an "ad hominem" attack, I call it calling a spade a spade

What it is my dear Kudu is me standing up to a long time bully, I do not appreciate your style

I am bound by conventionality to add: Rumor has it JFK's brain is alive and well and being taken care off on a desolate Greek Island while top scientists are cloning JFK a new body 100,000 black UN Helicopters are massing in Wyoming and MOntana, once the word is given the Trilateral Commission will take over the US and split us into 4 Federal Reserves Any day now the guys who "shot" the moon landing hoax will come forward with a documentary explaining how they convinced the world we landed on the moon from a sound lot at Universal Can we just do the program and not worry about what the rumors are or is paranoia taught in the pre 1972 Wood Badge Curriculum because it is not currently and at least that simple fact should be seen as an improvement And no, I am not attacking Kudu personally that would not be nice, but I am wearing a bit thin on his use of language such as "Wood Badge Idiots" so I guess I would say I am mocking him, which is different than attacking him