OldGreyEagle

I thought I was going crazy, But I did ask at my local boy scout store, Allentown, PAabout those bumper stickers. The Philadelphia (Valley Forge) COuncil had some printed up as well They are out there

Another thought that has had great success in our troop is for the younger boys to buy "womens" backpacks. They are designed for smaller shoulders and have smaller waist belts and I think what you are thinking, they do not all come in pink or magenta. On most of them there are no "female" markers and this may be an alternative.

Mr Eisley, Those bumperstickers may be found in Scout Shops. I travel quite a bit and freqently see them. I always try to stop in the local scout store when I travel to get the council strip and AO flap if possible.

Dang Merl, I thought that agreeing with you would elicit some kind of positive response, even if I admitted it grudgingly. I think I am agreeing with you, if the courts rule public schools cant charter scout units then they cant. I thought I was pretty clear about that, but being such an idiot, maybe I wasnt lucid enough

Well, Just to make this discussion livlier, I would like all of us to consider the Venture Oath As a Venturer, I believe that America's strength lies in our trust in God and in the courage, strength, and traditions of our people. I will, therefore, be faithful in my religious duties and will maintain a personal sense of honor in my own life. I will treasure my American heritage and will do all I can to preserve and enrich it. I will recognize the dignity and worth of all humanity and will use fair play and goodwill in my daily life. I will acquire the Venturing attitude that seeks truth in all things and adventure on the frontiers of our changing world. If these are words of discrimination, then so be it, in the Scout Oath when we promise "... to help other people at all times" I guess we are not inclusive enough. And if the ACLU chooses to, and succeeds in wrenching unit charters from Governmental Units, I know I will respect the ruling. I will in no way agree with it, but I will respect it. I do hope the orphaned units find a private institution so the boys may continue. If the units fall apart it will be a tragedy. But, as I have said in a thread past, the measure of a man is his strength of character under adversity. If the courts rule governmental units cant charter boy scout units, then they cant. There are always alternatives.

Then why not just say so And I agree, If Boy Scouts have qualifications that public schools cant meet, then as I have said before, other private institutions have to be found. ::extending a hand in friendship:: Are we agreed?

Thank you JM, I appreciate your comment But what? I have asked quite a few questions of Merl and his keyboard has grown uncharacteristically silent. What do you hope to gain from this posting Merl, and have you accomplshed it as yet? If you wish to point out that if BSA needs to stop using public buildings, then say so and if I understand my fellow scouters they understand that as well. If we dont like it, we may yelp but we will understand and follow it.

First, I do not agree that Boy Scout's require Chartering Institutions to discriminate, we do require our members to have certain qualifications as I have pointed out all along. If you choose to call those qualifications discrimination, that is your right under the First Amendment as is your right to call me an idiot. I have been insulted worse by better. As I alluded to before, if communities want the program, then chartering organizaitons will be found. And for someone who disects all the other replies, why no comments over why so many people who aver disgust for the Boy Scouts program wish to change it so badly? Wouldnt the best thing to do is ignore us and hope we will go away? The scouting organization has its reputation and success because of its core principles and beliefs, why should its members change them? If these beliefs are outdated then the program will suffer and perhaps its leaders will have to look into the reasons. But I dont see that happening soon. I cant say I am 100% behind everything that BSA does, but then again I am not 100% behind everything my government does either but I am proud to be called a Boy Scout and an American just as well You may think I still dont get it, and perhaps to whatever you are trying to say, I dont. I dont peruse papers looking for scout related stories, I dont have time for that. I am in Scouting for one reason, I loved being an scout. I received my Eagle in 1969 in the Chicago Suburbs which was not exactly the best place to wear a Boy Scout uniform, especially after the 68 convention. However, my father was an Asst Scoutmaster in the troop and I treasure the memories of that time. I met another man during that time, a friend of my father who passed a long time ago who taught me songs I teach today. Now my own son stands on the brink of Eagle, I am proud and humbled by the experience. Once while lashing together a monkey bridge in the back yard, not for any requirements, just for fun, he looked at me and said, "I am lucky I have a father who likes Scouting as much as I do", I choked back a tear and replied, "I am lucky to have a son who likes Scouting as much as I do". And I beleive many of my fellow scouters feel the same way. We are in scouting because a special person(s)helped us when we were in scouting. They made the time special for us and we wish to do the same for the next generation. Perhaps I dont get it because I am too busy working my job and planning the next findraiser,(Coke trailer at the local Wal-MArt), Camp-out (backpacking in March, always a thrill)and being a Scoutmaster at the National Jamboree (hey any of you scouters going? I'd love to meet you all) and the like. Furthermore I do not think I am particularly exceptional in this regard. I know several other parents in our troop who do the same thing. In our district dozens more and in the council hundreds. Do we all get what you want us to, probably not, we are to busy attending the boys. Is this an emoitonal response? Yeah, but then again love for our sons would have to be called emotional and I do not apologize for that. What do you want us or me to say? That Public Schools cant Charter Scout units, if the Courts say no, then its no, and life will go along. Those of us interested in Scouting will assure the life of the program, after all, there are always alternatives If you are trying to give us information, then give it without editorializing, and I guess I should have asked this before, but since you are so well versed on the court cases what is your interest in this? Are you a Scout Leader or an ACLU rep or what? What were you hoping to accomplish by your orignal posting and has that been met? if not what can I do to help meet it? And yes, I ramble, any of the regulars will tell you that this is normal for me, so Whattauthink?

Well, Well, Well, What I have wrought... I answered this thread only to see what type of reactions I would get and I must say I feel a little like the original atomic physicists working at the University of Chicago under Stagg Field. I knew I would create a chain-reaction, I just didn't know how big it would get. I am amazed. First a thank-you to my fellow scouters who did not reference my "outrageous" second entry. At least I dont think any scouter referenced the comment which was exaggerated to the wildest extreme to make a point. That point may have been lost in the many comments back and forth. Any Organization that has members has a right to expect its members to meet qualifying requirements. I beleive its in the best interests of Boy Scouts to continue to do so. The Latin Club does not accept those who are only interested in attending Toga Parties and Boy Scouts should not accept those who do not meet our qualifications. And yes, a desire to study Latin is a far cry from "Duty to God", but when did that become such a bad thing? Can anyone here point out in the US Constitution where its says that belief in God is a bad thing or at least not tolerated in public buildings? I am a Counselor for the Citizenship in the Nation merit badge and dang if I can find it. If I understand the Alchoholics Anonymous process, acceptance of a higher power is one of the 12 steps. Does that mean if an AA group uses a public building, it should be turned out? The 12th point of the scout law is a scout is reverent. In my troop we have Catholics, Protestants, Jews, and a Buddist. The Buddist follows a strict vegatarian diet and we are pleased to accomadate him on camp outs. We all worship together, each to his own "higher power". The 12th point of the scout law is not new. It has been around for 90 years, why should it be an issue today? Mr LeRoy, if this is what you are looking for, ok here it is I have said before in various postings that the measure of a man is his behavior in stressful times as anyone can behave well in good. I do not beleive the Boy Scouts should be where they are not wanted. If public schools dont want them, then they have to leave and find another Chartering institution. It will give the boys in the program a taste of what being persecuted for their beliefs feels like. And I beleive they will find an organization to charter them. And if the Boy Scouts are full of Idiots and the like, why are so many people spending so much time and energy trying to change it? I think an excellent solution would be for all the people who think Boy Scouts should radically change its founding principles is form a group of their own. Write your own rules and develop your own program since ours is, as you point out, seriously flawed and dishonest. Thank-you to all my fellow scouters who did not reference my first reply in any of their comments (at least I didt think I saw any references, thank-you because you knew I did not beleive what I was writing, it was only to prove a point by hyper

Sure, The Boy Scouts should drop the 10,000 units Public Schools charter since Public Schools CANT discriminate. Of course, that means no discrimination of any kind about anything. Convicted sex offenders, you cant be held out of a teaching job just say your religion required you to do the offense of which you were convicted, boys, sign up for the girls softball team after all, since in your religion all persons are created equal and we cant discriminate. Everybody on the football team HAS to play the same amount of minutes, cant discriminate based on talent, the same in all team sports because once again we are all equal, is that what you are saying? Everybody everywhere do anything you want and based it on

OK, I have watched this posting for awhile and no takers. So, rushing in where angels fear to tread, I ask the begged for question, what is the "honest" thing to do?

try this address http://www.bsa.scouting.org/forms/ IT should work out, except its PDF format, I wish I could find forms that let me type into too

This seems to be topic getting a lot of play in our council. Some Districts have banned the use of camo clothing on scouting events. I think that's absurd, but then again I could be wrong. I would like to know what others think about it. Usually camo is good sturdy outdoor clothing that goes on sale after hunting season. Usually going to half price or less. Is there anything wrong with allowing camo on a campout?

Oh, no offense taken. After all the 13th point of the scouters law is to have a sense of humor,

hey jm, be kind with the grandpa stuff, I am not known as OldGreyEagle for no reason. I used to think when my son talked about a certain blonde rapper, the guy took his name from a popular candy, I mean is not his name M & M's?

Ok, I need advice from you cold weather experts. In the February issure of Boy Life there is an article about winter clothing. On a diagram of how to dress a few lines are given to the benefits of wool trousers. When I went to my local Eastern Mountin Sports store looking for wool pants I was told nobody really wears them anymore. That polypropolene has made wool pants yesterday's news. What do you guys think? Whats the best winter clothing combination, talk faster, Klondike is Saturday...

Thank-you Uncle Bob, I was watching this thread with mixed horror and intimadation. I have bought a few tents over the past few years, and have bought them at Wal-Mart. Most were under $40.00 and some much less on sale. They have held up well with an average of 2 nights a month camping. I am not sure everyone can afford a two man tent for over $100.00 and its nice to know other scouts are as "thrifty" minded as I am

Mr Eisely, You seem to be very informed on this issue, as you have stated you post these items to let others know what is going on, etc. Does national have a response to all these items? I think I saw a reponse that while there were little "brush fires" nothing of concern was happening, yet week by week more and more fires break out. Where do you think this is heading? What will be the resolution or at least long term effects, I would like to hear yout opinions.

Per normal, we are ranging far afield on this one, but its a conversation well worth it. This is not an original thought, but I dont know where I heard it. America has always had guns, America has always had kids, but until very recently, America didnt have kids taking guns to school to shoot others. What changed? The role models kids had to follow. Can we blame the entertainment industry? Perhaps they contribute, but does anyone remember when the network NBC stood for Nothing But Cowboys? And every week James Arness as Matt Dillon opened the show with a deadly shoot out. Then there was Have Gun Will Travel with a hired gun as the hero, The Rifleman, (and ex-Chicago Cub first baseman no less) who was a heck of a father and as lethal with a tricked up fast shooting rifle. Bonnaza had good family values and a shoot out or two always improved ratings. Tombstone territory and the texas rangers round out the western fare, and none of them, I believe, were not exactly non-violent. Then again, how many of you followed the exploits of Sargeant Saunders, Kirby, and Little John on Combat always knowing this weeks replacements were as good as dead as soon as they opened their mouths. Twelve O'CLock high was good if you preferred death in the skies. Meanwhile the army movies from the sands of Iwo Jima to a thousand other epics always had death and destruction and I defy the modern purveyors of horror to outdo the master Alfred Hitchcock. Violence has been a staple of American entertainment. The original definition of "geek" was the guy in the side show who would bite the head off a chicken. Each generation has its geeks in the entertainment industry. David Bowie broke ground for Alice Cooper who was followed by Ozzie Osbourne who was out done by Marlilyn Manson. (pity the poor guy who will replace him) The point is, we have always had violent entertainment in our culture so why is it now that we claim its out of control? I think the last line in the song Blame Canada" from the South Park Movie says it best "We must blame them and cause a fuss Before someone thinks of blaming uuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuus" As DeWalt Kelley said in the classic Pogo comic strip " We have met the ememy and they is us" And during my trip down memory lane, i would be remiss if i didnt add that mom was at home, Dad would play ball on the week end and heaven help you if the school called and said you were caught misbehaving because no one thought of sueing the school district for invading a kids space, or privacy and corporal punishment was the norm. We can all come up with reasons as to why things are the way they are, but assigning blame wont change things, but living the scout oath and law will set an example for our youth to follow.

Well, Ok Mr Eisley, you got me. Moral decline may be traced back a whole lot further than Watergate. And While President Clinton is not any sort of role model for any one who suscribes to even half of the scout law, I cannot see him blamed for the state the country is in. He definitely profited from the current culture. Whats the answer? To stand up for our values, to take the flack when it is fired. We dont want homosexuals in? Then we must be able to deflect the attacks and not wonder why they cant understand that we are just "nice guys" who dont beleive the same way they do. We may be able to learn alot about passive resistance by studying Ghandi and Martin Luther King. They changed the globe and did it with nonviolence and lead by example.

The moral decline of the last 8 years??? Funny, the moral decline for me started with the Watergate Investigation. When a sitting president tried to cover-up the illeagal activites of his employess. Then again, when a president tried to swop arms for hostages and had his trusted aide, you know, Oliie North lie under oath to Congress because he knew he was right. Then again in the GO-GO 80's, we got the anti-hero on DALLAS, Larry Hagman playing JR EWING and his ends justifies the means of getting rich and power. The last 8 years have been rift of scandal, no doubt about it. But let us not kid ourselves that moral decline started in 1992. It has been around for a rather long time. What we do is reinforce the scout oath and law to our scouts, let then know what is right and wrong and when word reaches their ears of the latest scandals, they will at least know its wrong

In our venture crew we have girls and boys and cant seem to get really going. With band taking up most of the fall and then with plays and other activities, it seems Ventures are an afterthought rather than a main activity. The training tapes show a crew that has youth 19-21 leading and we dont have any of those types, 16 is the oldest. So, should we control the program more? Or let the kids run it?

Actually I cant beleive this, 2 items on scout history, although this one is in an entirely different vein. Does anybody have any information on an early scouting executive named Edmund Hesser. He lived in or around Syracuse, New York. I am trying to help a collegue track down some family history.

In this world I keep telling myself nothing should surprise me, yet once again I have a shocker!!!! A scout past First Class, Eagle Board of review eligible no less, who has no concept of the history of Boy Scouts????? My first reaction was, Gee, must not have read the history section of the Scout Handbook and then did'nt anyone ever tell the story of the Unknown Boy Scout who helped Boyce that foggy night in London? I am not sure a merit badge is required, but not to know ones roots is a shame that must be borne not only by the scout, but also the troop for not talking about the unknown scout, Baden-Powell, Brownsea Island, et al.

The VINDICATIVE ACLU????? Returning in kind what we receive from those who persecute us because they dont understand us accomplishes nothing but ratify that we are bigots. When the court case was taken to the Supreme Court and the ruling was given, what did you think was gonna happen? It is easy to lead in good and prosperous times, it is when we are sorely tested that we show what we stand for, and who we are. Calling for the downfall of what we proclaim to be a vindicative organization shows us to be mean and low