OldGreyEagle

Patrol Call for the Wolverines? How about "Hail to the Victors"

You are right, the disabled scouts you talk about tried hard to add more to the group with what they could do because they realized they might not be able to do it all. This scout doesnt see any difference between his abilities and behaviors from any of the other scouts. Part of your scouts problem is that he sees no problem. This is what is most frustrating, in every sense of the phrase "he doesnt get it". The challenge is to work with him long enough for him to "get it".

You could all get in a circle facing out, putting index fingers up for horns and harumpffffff real loud. The pronunciation is up to you OR, you could all line up and start to dance, shuffling your feet, and your call would be, We're all the shuffling buffaloes OR, your yell would go,,,1, 2, 3, 4, NICKELSSSSSS If i think of more, I will let you know

Sctmom Thank you for elegantly stating what I was trying to explain. Your suggestions are dead on, you are one well informed ADD/ADHD parent. Chippewa, Working with this scout may be an ordeal, but it looks like Scouts may be the thing that will very much help him if handled correctly. In our troop we have a boy who is either in a wheel chair or a walker. But scouting is for all boys. He doesnt come on a lot of hikes, but if the terrain is right, he does come and with a long length of rope the kids pull him along. He has a hard time speaking and does not have fine motor coordinaiton in his hands. While he is eager, his manual skills arent there. It takes a lot to work with him. Nobody begrudges the effort because its evident Carl needs the help. Then again it helps that his father, as dedicated a man as I have ever known, is always by his side. Your scout needs the same help. Its harder because you cant look at him and see the problems, but they are there sure as a Carl's issues are as soon as you hear him talk. If the disruptions are major enough, will the parents become involved in the troop? If the behavior is truly bad enough, you may have to request a parent accompany him on any activity, but this would be a last resort. Looks like they may be more of a hinderance than help. Keep changing strategies until you find one that works. Remember, the good Lord never send you a challeneg you cant overcome

Like the saying goes If you do Scouting for money, then you are a professional If you do Scouting for free, then you are a volunteer BUT If you pay to do Scouting, then you ARE a scout!!!

Chippewa, While diagnosing long distance is dangerous for a physcian, and even more so for a non-physian, what you have described is as classic a case of Attention Deficit Disorder (ADD) as I have ever heard described. This may be your first exposure to this condition, or at least the most severe case. In ADD the biblical quote "the spirit is willing but the flesh is weak" is ever so appropriate. The scout may have every intention of doing "good" while you speak to him. But 5 minutes later the bug crawling across the floor has far to much appeal then standing in line and listening to announcements. Having personal gear strewn around is another indicator of ADD as well as lack of maturity. Its really not his fault anymore than poor vision is for a scout who needs to wear glasses. You mentioned you spoke to his parents, and they agree with you about his behavior, I am sure they do.... as well as I am sure they hear the same thing from every organized activity the boy does. Can you ask the parents if the boy has been tested for ADD? Is he on medication? I know generally Ritalin has been been vilified for over use, and it probably is, but in some cases, it is needed, actually required for normal behavior. If the parents deny the boys behavior, look at the father, while ADD isnt genetic per se, it does tend to run in families and males are more likley to have it than females. And many parents will deny there is any problem, just that the boy is energetic OK, so much for my diagnosis... We have has some real challenges in our troop. One boy literally would dance barefoot in a fire in the winter. The Scoutmasters used to take 4 hour shifts watching him so he wouldnt hurt himself or others. He would never intend to hurt another, but at times his impulsivity would get the best of him. He is now a 20 year old ASM. He got his Eagle just as he turned 18, and no scout, even one who gets Eagle at 13 ever worked harder. When I joined the troop the boy was 14 and I wanted to know why we kept the boy, the committee chair asked me where else could he go? She was right, ADD kids are high risk for falling into the "wrong crowd" becasue adults will shun them and tell them they are no good, dont behave well, etc until the kids beleive they are rotten and go off to prove it. Whether the parents help or not, you can do many things. Scouting magazine had a few articles on scouts with ADD, try to get them. You said the boy was literally a genuis, this is not surprising with ADD. These kids are very distractable, unless its something that interests them, then they can concentrate for hours. If he loves scouting, and he must, he attends 90% of the activities and he learns scouting skills easliy, can you use him to demonstrate skills? Teach him the skills first and have him show the troop. It lets him learn stuff first, which he will love and he then demonstrates it to the others. Sounds like an Instructor position would be the fit. Then again, he would have to have guidance when presenting, he couldnt do it alone. He will take more time than a "normal" boy, but ADD kids do mature, they just take a whole heck lot longer than others. When do you advance him? When he accomplishes the requirements. You said he doesnt do his share of the work. Encourage the other scouts to peer pressure him,they are far more effective than any adult. But by no means give up on him. And by the way, why do I know this? I have to admit I am an ADD adult, I bounced from job to job until I became a consultant (insert your best consultant crack here)The constant change of scenery eases my distractability. Also my 16 year old son is ADD, dyslexic and SPL and we are planning his Eagle court of honor. It takes a lot work with ADD kids, but the rewards are sweeter as well, good luck

Sorry, My comment was supposed to be ironic, Of course you are supposed to be proud of being an Eagle, or Life, or Star or whatever rank you have earned, because you have earned it. Eagle, however, is the only rank you carry into adulthood, or in my case, being older than than a youth (wont admit to being grown-up and cant find anyone who will commit to saying i am an adult) Sorry if I misled you

so does that mean a scout shouldnt wear his rank, even an Eagle rank patch because someone might think he is proud of being an Eagle?

eisley, if you think thats confusing, consider the 19 year old Venturing Crew President, by day an ASM who must sleep with the adults and use the adult's shower and when on a venturing activity must now be considered a youth and use the youth facilties. No one ever accused the BSA of being consistent

Putting expectations down on paper and having the boys sign it, or the parents is a good idea. But that will only work from this point forward. If you have not defined the expectations, holding the boy to "invisable" standards not defined during this period of time is not possible. And even if he is a rascal will no real scouting spirit, you will need objective criteria and standards to deny him a rank

I hate when I keep talking when I said I would be still!!! Sctmom, We seem to have a lot in common. One thing of which is that we have homosexual friends and can talk from a reference not appreciated by others whose only contact is the broad charactors seen on TV or the flaming queens normally associated with the gay lifestyle. I understand what you are saying, but I dont think we will convince many that its ok, not all gays will Proselytize youth to join them. Other than that, welcome to our forum

try the oa website

Well, I think this discussion may have run its course. Just as I know you will never change your stance, you know I wont. You appear to see homosexuality as an affront to God and nature, I do not. I do not think it is like pedophilia, alchoholics, kleptomania or any other example that was given. I have known homosexuals who were/are fine citizens who are respected by the community. Most of the community are not aware that these people are gay and would lose their standing if they were outed. I still wonder why people in Kansas City are so bent on changing scouts when so many more issues should be addressed Anyway, thats all I have to say about gays and scouts

Pedophilia and alcholholism should never be accepted as the "norm" because these conditions effect unwilling members of society. I do not ever want to contemplate where falling down drunk is OK, because ..."the guy cant help it, its in his nature". Nor would I want a society where children are preyed on by molestors, and have that considered Ok as well. If its determined such people cant control themselves, then a sanitarium or prison sounds like a very good idea. However, many homosexuals exist in society without any one knowing. They live their lives, and do nothing untoward to anybody else. I just cant accept that as soon as a person is found to be homosexual, all of a sudden he is wrong or confused and a bad person when his record to that point has been immaculate. Neither would I want to be on a team trying to decide exactly what qualifies as grotesque acts of lewdness.

Dang I hate when I do that I DO NOT suscribe to the belief just because you are honmosexual you are a de facto dangerous person

Rooster, we have had many agreements over the past few months as well as disagreements, this will fall into the disagreement category: I do not think it accurate to lump homosexuality into the same classification as alcholics and pedophiles. Just as a heterosexual man is not guaranteed to be a molestor of little girls, a homosexual is not guarenteed to be a molestor of little boys. An Alcholic is a danger to himself and others. Again, I do susribe to the belief that a homosexual is a de facto danger to others. But, I also beleive the Boy Scouts have the right to set crieria for membership. I have said before, the true mettle of a man or woman is established under pressure and we will see what BSA is made of. If BSA is diluted, we will have the program we deserve

Given some of the Questions and observations recently discusssed, I thought a new thread just about AO would be interesting. And that is, What is the state of the OA in your area? In mine its pretty much a program where there are two campouts a year getting summet camp ready and then taking it down. Not much else occurs, is this what the OA is all about? I was an Ordeal Member as a scout, and recently made brotherhood, but aside from impressive ceremonies, and they are very impressive, what else does the OA do? I know what they are supposed to do, I just want to know what they actually do in your area

sctmom, you are not alone... In my Council/District a few fellow scouters have identified a class of scouters we like to call "knot heads". They are scouters who have risen to a position of authority and want everybody to see how much power they have. They chase after knots the way a toddler goes for a christmas tree. Perhaps they are compensating for low self-esteem, no one will ever know. The problem is, they often render immeasurable service to the council/district and not many professional scouters want to risk offending the core of the work force. For however crude and unscoutlike they are, they do get things done. The answer? Get as involved as they are, volunteer for all you can and show them, through example, how its done. Most likely you wont change many of them, but you can start a new culture, one that is more scout like and over time it will change.

I have waffled a bit on this issue, whether or not is would be ok to have gays as leaders. As is often commented in these discussions most tests of morality are best handled by the scout's family or church. However, I do have an observation I have to make, 30 people met at the Central United Methodist Church, and brainstomed ways to change the Boy Scouts??? I have not been to Kansas City for a long time and am glad 30 citizens could take an evening out to come up with ways to change the Boy Scouts. I am glad that all racial issues have been satisfactorally dealt with. I am glad to know all gang related and educational issues along with poverty and crime are no longer a concern. Its nice to know that these concerned citizens were willing to offer advice to an institution, that no matter how flawed I may perceive it to be, represents standards which define an ideal. The entire scout law is not rooted in western, eastern or miltary culture rather it is rooted in humanity and religion. All organizations in Kansas City should be so lucky as to have such a heritage. Or anyplace else for that matter (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Welcome Tachion and I agree with Rooster, Most troops would love to have you, just look around a bit for the best fit. And Rooster, You have defined the essentials for an Eagle Court of Honor with the upmost accuracy.

The story I heard on the Red Berets was they were introduced to be more hip and less military looking. Then Curtis Sliwa founded the Guardian Angels which was esentially a viglillante group that would ride subways with red berets on looking to "stop" or prevent crime. BSA dropped the red beret so the scouts wouldnt be confused with an "angel"

The story I heard on the Red Berets was they were introduced to be more hip and less military looking. Then Curtis Sliwa founded the Guardian Angels which was esentially a viglillante group that would ride subways with red berets on looking to "stop" or prevent crime. BSA dropped the red beret so the scouts wouldnt be confused with an "angel"

Dont worry Mr Scout, I emailed the moderator this morning when Clint didnt acknowledge my posting

A forthright question, yes... is there?

Sorry, I cant comment on this thread until Clinton agrees to change his rather disagreeable Username