OldGreyEagle

I've always wondered why Scout shops dont offer a "patching" service when they sell uniforms. A service to sew on the patches after they are bought and a promise of uniform availibility may be a great fundraiser for the council. With many single non sewing dads et al I think this would be an excellent idea.

Depends on what your council policy is usually it is always a good idea to have a notary along. But with the tents and patrol boxes, oarlocks and keys, right and left handed smoke shifters, sky hooks, shoreline, and egos normally we cant fit one in.

Sctmom, you are wrong Of course there is hugging in Boy Scouts, even a group hug is permissible, you just need permission from all participants ahead of time to receive physical contact and after the "event" merely document that the hug was carried out in the above manner and was done in a purely Platonic and non-threatening manner. Have all sign and you are good to go.

Sctmom, Thanks A well needed postive post, seems the key to appreciating diversity is Inclusion, not Exclusion

Hey, look, I am a senior member, wonder if I will get a plaque or anything, Eisley, did you get anything???

Rooster, if the kids came up with the standard by which they are measured, and the consequences of not having the parts of the uniform are known, how can that be a bad thing?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

DITTO

WOW, no disagreements, maybe this is one Dad and I can agree with. Patrol activities should be encouraged, Scouts have to do more as there is fewer of them so they get more experience and patrol spirit grows

Dad, perhaps you have always had great self-confidence, perhaps you never felt weak and in danger of physical abuse. But when I was told to stay at my post until relieved, I had more resolve than Horatio at the Bridge. So now me trying to fit in was wrong?

Eisely, I am not sure how I am better for the experience but I will leave it at that. If you draw a distinction between a trick and a practical joke, I can see that as well. The snipe hunt is a trick, running your shorts up the flag pole is a practical joke. I can see the difference and appreciate it. I am not sure how the topic of PC came up, but listen to this. Long ago I was the manager of a dept in a hospital. A male and female employee was always flirting with each other. I was down right amazed the first time i saw it but then was told, oh, thats just how they are... A few years later the entire hospital had to attend a sexual harassment seminar. Within a week I was called to Personnel. Some one had complained about the behavior of my two employees. It was explained to me that it wasnt either of the two who complained, but that some one observing the situation was "made to feel uncomfortable" by their actions. So I got to tell the two to "knock it off". Was it right? I dont think so, was the complaint legitimate? Again I dont think so, but I had to enforce these two not "flirting" or it was my job. We managed but it was not easy. The way the personal manager explained it, anything that makes you feel uncomfortable is harrasment. I beleive that was already mentioned. If I had the nervous tic of always licking my lips and some one was offended by it, and I couldnt stop, I could be fired. Now, for the record, I am not for that kind of PC. Now, Tall tales? When told around the campfire and no one is sure who is sucked in and who is not, thats not hazing. There is no public humiliation(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Rooster And just how does a boy learn to deal properly with being debased and humiliated? He either has to accept it, retaliate, or take out his frustration on those smaller, weaker and younger than he. These are not admired attributes of a man. Ok, Self-disclosure time. I was an innocent, naive scout. I went on a snipe hunt. Yes, I knew about "snipe hunts" but I also knew that a snipe is a real bird and the older scouts and adults lead me to beleive we were in an area where they actually lived. And yes, I stayed out until dawn. Humiliation and despair are not strong enough words to describe my feelings. I was madder at myself for falling for it than anything else. Then at the very next campout, the SPL sent me out for the Cannon Report, theoretically the camp newspaper, actually just the sound the cannon made. I spent 2 hours going camp to camp before some kindly scoutmaster replied when I told him what I was looking for, son, have you ever been on a snipe hunt? I nearly fainted. I didnt want to go back to the troop. I waited until 1am. In the morning I was asked if I saw any Snipe while looking for the cannon report. That was the end of that, I refused any request to do anything. I never trusted another older scout for as long as I was in the troop and I made Eagle, not because of the harrassment, but despite it. It didnt teach me a thing except I was a stupid naive child in the company of wolves. I told my dad and mother what had happened and they said what do want us to do. I knew having Mommy and Daddy complain would make the situation worse, so I said, dont do anything. But I resolved that I would prevent any kid from going through what I did. I would talk to the new scouts, tell them the tricks that would be pulled. They saw "jokes" attempted and because I had warned them, they werent caught. I eventually made SPL because the kids knew I wouldnt abuse them and looked out for them. I do the same thing now,

You can set up a scoring system where attendance at a meeting is a point a person for the patrol. Complete uniform is another point. Attendance at a function is worth a point a patrol member and placing in any Council/Disctrict function's overall competition is worth 25 points. Advancement a rank is worth 15 points and each merit badge is worth three points per scout. Having the Patrol Flag at a meeting is worth 5 points as well as along on a function. I am sure you get the idea, you can add whatever makes sense to your troop. Let the kids know what the rules are and let it go, it should make for fun. Be sure to give some reward for the winner and let them know what they are striving for. It may be a campout where the other patrol does the cooking and cleaning. Actually, even better, ask the boys what the reward should be, that makes more sense(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Our troop has an uniform inspection every 3 months as well. BSA sells cards that describe the perfect uniform and the parols are scored off that. Inspections are always well known before they take place

Rooster, I appealed to Scoutmom and Sctmom because I have noticed we often agree on the same topics, I didnt see it as a man/woman thing. I just wanted to know what they thought. Boys have enough to learn in the program. I would ask Dad to read the thread on When to Advance, if I was as Liberal and Politically Correct as he posts, then I should have been all for advancing the boy in question. In fact, I beleive I said the scout should advance when he was able to accomplish the requirements. I guess that makes me a real liberal. Boys learn it is a rough world when they try to start a fire for the first time, cook and clean up for their patrol, make do without kitchen untensils if they are forgotten. Scouts see other scouts who joined when they did or even after advance past them. Hopefully they get motivated, I wouldnt consider them victims. They already know its not a perfect world where no one gets hurt by the actions of others. I guess I thought that scouts was where they could go, be challenged and not have to worry about somebody messing around with their gear or their heads. Chippewa, to be sure you understand my position, the situation you describe is great. When all the participants enter the event knowing anything is possible, and know the rules, then they are forewarned and take the risks and rewards. I am not talking about that. I am talking about torturing scouts who have no idea its comming. Thats just wrong.

Dad, when you respond with thoughts and ideas, not labels and invectives, maybe we can talk.

Sorry again, Being Humiliated is not something that grows charactor, it feeds anger and distrust. I thought that sticking up for the oppressed and picked on was a good thing, apparently there are scouters who think its a growing experience. So, what if your kid has a problem with a bully? is the answer to tell the kid to punch his lights out? Maybe the bully backs down, maybe the kid gets the stuffing kicked out of him, what was accomplished? That the kid knows he is weak and denfenseless, not a good thing no matter how it works out. What do you do when the jokee reacts with violence, tell him it was only a joke and nobody meant anything by it? Then why do it if it meant nothing. Scoutmom and Sctmom, what do you think? Am I being too sensitive, normally we have similar opinions, what is yours?

Sorry, Humiliation and debasemnt, making fun and being the butt of another's joke is not fun and can never be

I cant see a the comment boys will be boys as a reason that hazing is ok. Just because it was done in the past does not make it ok now. You are right, Tap Outs have been changed, why? because of the abuses of the past. How did we get to where we are? Because those in charge, those who were supposed to be sure things dont get out of hand could not control the situation. Can todays leaders be better than those in the past?

Sorry Rooster, There is no room for humiliation or degradation in Boy Scouts, if you choose your victim wrong and scar the kid emotionally, what do you say, oops sorry? I can not sanction any kind of hazing or "practical joke playing" done on scouts, no matter how "good-natured" it is. Now, as far as the ugliest man in the world skit goes, I have only seen it done with adults as the foils and have no problem with that but would not tolerate it done to a scout.

Well, Again I am sorry Chippewa29, I saw your posting and then the Chief's talking about the shoreline story and I reacted with passion. I re-read your posting and see that you were the left handed smoke shifter. I have seen scouts terrified to return to camp because they couldnt find a sky hook, or stayed by their post on a snipe hunt until dawn and saw trust in adults utterly destroyed. Sister Mary Elizabeth always said I should increase my reading comprehension, I guess she was right

Eisely My humblest apologies to you, this is a topic that I obviously feel very strongly about. It was never funny, it is always cruel and has no place in scouting. Again, sometimes the passion clouds the senses, I do apologize

No Eisely, Scouts did not lose their sense of humor, humiliaiton and debasement is never funny, only cruel and crude. Rather than send out kids to look for shoreline or the keys to the oar locks why not just paint "moron" on their forehead for the week end, cause thats the same thing. If you have disruptive scouts you handle them face to face and tell them that they are disruptive and not to behave that way. Sending them away on a wild goose chase only tells them that deceit and cruelty is tacitly approved by BSA

Wondrous Paternal Parental Unit The E-Mail i got from the adminstrators said both coolscout101 and Old Gray Eagle had been blocked and erased. Also it had a call for any other disruptive behavior to be reported and handled.

I want to extend a public thank-you to the Administrators of this site for providing this venue for us to exchange our ideas. I also want to thank them for their response to our E-Mails to eliminate a very Unscout like "troll" as it was called. They did respond and I appreciate it.

Oh Boy.... I think I know where this is going to land me, but never fearing to tread where angels are afraid to, I have to say this... Whether its looking for a left handed smoke shifter, 50 feet of shoreline, the cannon report, snipe hunt or even praying to the trio of great Indian gods Owa, and T'goo and Siam BSA has one word for it, HAZING and has no place in a troop that purports itself as a safe haven for boys. All this hazing does is set up a climate of, "well you got me and I am gonna get the young kids next year". How kind or friendly is it to set a little kid out in the middle of nowhere watitng for a snipe? Thats cruelty beyond measure. Maybe most kids take it well, but you will get some who are so absolutely humiliated by the experience that they leave the troop and that troop has caused that boy to miss the complete scouting experience. Some may stay, but harbor a distrust of adults for a long time, if not forever. And HAZING by its nature escalates and the adult leaders cannot be everywhere watching what other scouts do to their "victims". I do not approve of HAZING in any shape or form. We are the Boy Scouts of America, a brotherhodd of service directed at our male youth, torturing these youth to prove their worthiness is not in keeping with our goals.