OldGreyEagle

You say the scout has been a Life Scout for close to two years, did he fulfill his six months in a position of responsibility? If he completed six months is an acceptable position of responsibility and he has an approved service project, how are you going to deny his application? It sounds like it may be a case of bad attitude, but how did he get to be Life? Had you ever talked to the scout before about his attitude and lack of leadership or will the first time he learns of your feelings is when you refuse to sign off the leadership requirement?If you have a documented trail of counseling you will be ok, if the scout claims he didnt know of your disapproval until you refuse to sign, how will you refute him? The reality is, you can refuse to sign, he will appeal to Council. They will ask if he has his 21 merit badges, evidence of a completed leadership project and what role of responsibility he held for six months. If those things checks out, 10 to one he gets his Eagle. Why do the other leaders think he should be an Eagle, do they have lower standards than you or or your standards unrealistic (I have no idea, its only a thought) Sounds like a real quandry, what if he proves himself through his Leadership project, could you see him squeaking through? Anyway, those are my thoughts, I want to see what other people think.

Welcome to the Forum Vonlaeng, Its not wearing shorts that the scouts in my troop object to, its the fit and cut of the shorts that causes the problems

If this doesnt put a tear in your eye, nothing will, I include the first verse as well, I dont think you'll mind Softly falls the light of day, While our campfire fades away. Silently each Scout should ask Have I done my daily task? Have I kept my honor bright? Can I guiltless sleep tonight? Have I done and have I dared Everything to be prepared? Listen Lord, oh listen Lord, As I whisper soft and low. Bless my mom and Bless my dad, These are things that they should know. I will keep my honor Bright, The oath and law will be my guide. And mom and dad this you should know, Deep in my heart I love you so.

Given the heritage of boy scouts, Drosa, what would you say if I joined you in skirt, of course on me it would be called a kilt. What say you guys, given the current uniform shorts or a BSA offical uniforn kilt, what would you wear? I am for a kilt, especially on hot muggy days at camp.

here's a totally differnt take on the situation: Unless I am mistaken, which is always possible. I dont think "Council" actually starts any troop. The Chartering Organization starts the troop, with some input/aid from "Council" but the Chartering Organization has to be willing to administer the program. Now, from a totally dispassionate observation, doesnt the VFW, American Legion, Church, Elks, etc. three blocks down from you have the right to start their own troop if they wish? That would seem to be the American way as no troop holds a franchise to scouting for a distinct location. And the person who started the new troop, perhaps she didnt like the way you look, talk, the car you drive, any number of things that you cant control and will only drive you crazy if you knew. It doesnt have to be because she thinks your a bad person, it just is. So, now there are two troops, sounds like you have an oprotunity to evaluate your program. Are you truly boy lead, what events do you do, do you do the events because its what the adults want to do, or do the boys plan the calendar? What is your advancement record, I dont mean do the requirements for the boys, but do you give opprotunities to earn advancement, are these advancements recognized? Could that process be improved? You mention your school has 900 students. Unscientifically you should have about 450 boys, if this is an elemetary school with 5 grades, that means on the average of 90 boys in a grade, and you say you are getting 4-6 new scouts a year, thats about 5 percent of the availible youth from one grade. If its an 8 grade school that about 50 per grade and you are getting 10 percent of your availble youth from one grade. Can you think of ways to recruit new boys? How strong is your Pack? Could they use help on School Night, could they use Den Chiefs? do you attend school night? You are now faced with something American Business calls competition. You have an opportunity to make yourself better and make yourself the most attractive unit to the graduating Weblous and to the non-Cub scout demographic. Just because a boy wasnt a Cub Scout doesnt mean he might not like Boy Scouts, maybe nobody asked him. Get everyone, or at least as many of your leaders as possible trained. Follow the Program. Push yourself to be the best possible unit.This will have one of two effects. The other troop will fold, because yours is so neat, no one wants to go to the "other" place, or the other troop will try to outdo you. They may try to make their program even beter than yours which means you have to improve yourself again. If both troops maintain themsleves and attract boys and both give an excellent program, just who loses? I know your community will win with two dynamic troops. And if all the energy it will take to do this saps both troops, perhaps after a few years a merger will need to take place and only one troop will remain, but a much stronger and vibrant organizaiton than you have now. (you may have a wonderful organizaiton now, it will just become better by necessity) Bottom line is you can complain about the competition or you can meet it head on, I realze I know nothing about your situation, and maybe all I have said is way off target, but I think at least some is food for thought.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

4-5 merit badges is plenty from my experience and that does not include the scouts in the First Year Program. First year scouts we try to steer to the handicrafts, basketry, leatherwork, etc. Completing fewer badges is far better than getting partials on a lot. If the scout has a particular interest in a badge, such as the well experienced hunter at age 11, thats why the blue card has to be signed by a scout leader. The scoutmaster gets to decide if the scout can do the badge. Second year is where we emphasize scoutcraft/waterfront and third year we encourage environmental science. All these are guidelines. One year a scout wanted to do ten merit badges, we discouraged him, his parents called the scoutmaster and the camp ranger (who was really confused let me tell you) In the end he completed 3, had 6 partials it took him almost all year to finish and one he never started. The next camp he started 4, and completed 4 and had a much better time at camp Summercamp is supposed to be fun, communing with nature, frigid froggy (630 am dip in the lake), communal eating, the skits, the classes, the friendships, staff campfires, the OA camfire, Troop campfire, singing songs, doing silly cheers, assembling for colors, the cannon going off, retiring the colors, the cannon going off, watching skunks prowl for food while hoping the boys remembered not to sleep with chips, and number one on the list: Watching timid unsure scouts on sunday/monday be old hands at things on friday. They go away boys and I wouldnt quite say they come back men, they do come back somewhat different. Man, I am making myself campsick here only 6 weeks to go.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Ask at your scout store if there is a seamstress who does uniforms for a fee. I found one who is committee chair of another troop. She can put on patches in the twinkle of an eye and they are always perfect. Look for these professional patchers, they are worth it

Rooster, I guess I was being too subtle and should have been more blunt, we have 79 or so postings on hazing and tons more on interpretations of policy and to this date 10 postings on a family ready to give Boy Scouts "the death penalty" in their family. For all our talk about doing it for the boys, here is one boy who may miss out on the chance of a lifetime and we are parsing words and trying to determine how many boy scouts can sing on the head of a pin. I just see huge disparity in where our energy should be and where it is.

When Scouts recite the Scout Law, and come to the "brave" part, I wonder what they think about. Is brave rescuing a baby from a fire? yes, it is. Is brave exposing yourself to enemy fire to recover a wounded comrade? yes it is. Many examples are expressions of bravery, unfortunately we have seen more than we may have wished since 9/11. But how many times in their day to day life do they get to "be brave" BUT, the bravest thing a youth can do is stand up for what he knows is right in the face of ridicule and his peers. Inappropriate vocabulary is wrong, it is to be reported in any format the scout chooses. If we falter in any of the promises we make to the scouts, or if we show some things may be glossed over, we teach them nothing matters and all may be glossed over.

First I have to say I am a little disconcerted here. On this forum we have a raging debate over what constitutes hazing and "just punishment" ( of which I am an active participant) while a quite salient issue, such as how do we get everyone on the same page, same book, or in this case, the same universe if not ignored, has not received the same passion. First Salra, I understand you need to seek out a new troop. Contact Eisley, he wont steer you wrong, I hope he is close enought to help you. Your experience is a perfect example of how personal a scouts experience is. 20 years from now your son and mine might meet in a business meeting. Where they grew up will be talked about as well as memorable experiences. If boy scouts come up, my son can say he was a patrol leader at the national jamboree in 2001, and got to march with his patrol flag on stage. He can say he is an Eagle. He can say he went to summer camp for 5 years and canoed the Minnesota/Canadian boundary waters. He (rightfully) will be convinced that Boy Scouts is/was great. At this moment you son's response will be something on the order of, "I joined Boy Scouts, but they turned out to be a bunch of sexually perverted freaks" or something like that. And unfortunately, both views will be correct. I guess I love Boy Scouts to much to know that such a sordid event will be a boy's memory of what should have been a highlight in his life. Now comes the hard part, and its hard becasue you shouldnt have to do it. Please do find a decent troop and have your son experience all the things that will match my son's experiences. Have him remember that while his scouting career may have had a rocky start, his family didnt give up and overcame a significant challenge. Again, its doubly hard for you to do since you shouldnt have to do it, but I believe it will be a benefit to your family if you do.

To get back to Slont's call for where does discipline stop and hazing start I offer this, Discipline is intended to keep order, Hazing is intended to humiliate/embarrass or otherwise make a "spectacle" of the victim. Having the person sing for lost items or fry like bacon or some other stunt in front of assembly I beleieve is hazing. Having them go to the SM/ASM to retrieve lost items and get a responsibiltiy lecture is not as long as the lecture is not held publicly. Now to go further, Latrine cleaning is a popular example. If the troop has a tradition that all new comers on their first campout must clean the latrine thats all right with me as long as there is no audience cheering on with derision and all are equal and all must do it. To me things done in private as a response to a specific transgression is tends to be dicispline while actions performed for the troop at large for transgerssions or "just because" is hazing

Illegal is possesson of a controlled substance, so any drugs or alchohol is illegal for a scout. A reality check is whether or not I would call the cops if I found a kid with a beer versus taking it and returning it to the parents. I know its illegal, but I am not sure I would call the police if we were far (over 2 hours) from home. But then again, maybe I should, I dont know for sure, cant wait to see what others put down.

I was responding to Slont's comment here when I decided to start a new thread based on his question that I felt was very thought provoking, leastwise, it provoked me

Last night at our troop's meeting it was a first years patrol turn to provide a color guard for the opening and closing. One of the scouts was very reluctant to carry a flag, but the PL pressed the scout into duty. While I watched it, I thought of all that has been said about charactor building, safe haven, etc some even by me. The scout performed admirably, but whether or not he has been emotionally scared, I dont know and I am a big one to worry about emotionally scaring a boy. Yet, since to participate in a flag ceremony is an advancement requirement, even the most shy scout has to fulfill the requirement. The communication merit badge has a public speaking requirement, no matter the the degree of shyness, the requirement must be met. Now the question comes to where does harrasment start and charactor building stop. To me, the Slont's example of how to get scouts to clean latrines is easy. The troop/patrol posts a duty roster, job responsibilites rotate in a fair and logical order and when it becomes time for you to clean the latrines you clean them. You clean them because its your turn and as part of the community comprising that camp, you do your share of the work. Same thing for cooking, washing, water duty, etc. Everyone works because its a community and cooperation is required (and part of citizenship training) Now, to add to the degree of diffuculty. You are on a campout, its past lights out, that "one" tent wont settle down. After 15 minutes you bark "hey you guys settle down" from your tent. This works for a few minutes but soon they are at it again. Maybe next time you have to get out of your tent at do the "dressing down of the tent" bit where you speak firmly to the tent. That again works for a little while but nothing lasts. Finally after a few hours, things are quiet, not because a scout is obedient as much as a scout is tired. The next morning you confront the residents of the tent. Each boys voice was clearly and distinctly heard during the night. Now, making noise after lights out is a rule infraction, but not like stealing or destroying property, but I think its a greater transgression than whispering to your buddy while the sign is up. You could say, make the tentmates clean the latrine, but is that any different than making them sing for lost items? You can say well, losing an item is something that happens and is not the same. Then again, maybe getting the "giggles" is something that happens and cant be helped, especially when a bunch of good friends get together and its something that just happens. So, what do you do? I was thinking since they were making so much noise at night, maybe they should seranade the troop at lunch time (after eating of course), but boy oh boy, if I suggest that, I know what's comming. So, how would you handle this in your troop ? One more thought, I have been blessed with a normal talking voice, but I can incease the bass rather quickly and almost rattle windows. Sometimes a quick "hey" stops horseplay half way across camp before it gets out of hand. Then, I am thinking, could my exclamation be taken as harrasment? My father was a DI in the marines, so getting "yelled" at was part of my childhood and I got used to it, but if a scout is from a soft-spoken home, could it be termed terrorizing? I realize I am all over the map here, but I was thinking about this post at the meeting last night and thought of these things. I still dont think singing for lost items is a good idea, but I would like to see examples of behavior that occured and the "corrective action" that was applied(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Well Ed, all I ask is that my opinion be respected Thank-You

Ed, read the left handed smoke shifter thread, especially my posts

Sorry Ed, If you regard snipe hunts and looking for fictional camp gadgets as the "fun in scouting" then you and I have seriously different versions of what constitutes fun.

Bob, If I implied or expressed that knowledge of the manuals and practical experience were mutually exclusive, I miscommunicated my thoughts. They are very much compatible

mom, you mean The Grand Old Duke of York He had ten thousand men He marched them up the hill and marched them down again, and when you're up you'er up and when your're down your're down and when your only halfway up, you're neither up or down Or, an Updated version Good Capt Kirk, He had 10, 000 men He beamed them off the Enterprise and Beamed them on again And when your off your off And when your on your on, But if your neither off or on, your nowhere to be found (to be politically correct, you could use Capt Janeway to get a female character invovled) Yuck Yuck Yuck Rooster, I mean this with repect and I hope I explain this correctly. There was once a poster on this forum whose prose and content upset quite a few people, so many in fact he doesnt post here anymore (although his 3 months are up and I miss him)and by my count you defended his postings at least three times. I understand you didnt agree with his style, but you agreed with his message. Perhaps Bob White writes with too much "confidence" for you. He calls it confidence and you may call it arragance. Whatever it is, I havent seen a lot of calls for OGE's or Rooster's opinion but I see him sought a lot. I have taken issue with Bob a few times, but I realize Mr White is a valuable resource to this forum and I am glad he is here. Then again, I am glad you are here as well so I guess there is no accounting for taste. Beleive me, when I want a point of Boy Scout policy clarified, I know Bob can do it. It may not always be what I wanted to see, but I know it is accurate. (BTW I am selling I (Heart) Bob White T-Shirts at ScamsRus@ReallyAYahoo.com And Bob, My song selection was a review of songs that have apparrently been banned from a Scouting Council and I wanted to show that I am not a dedicated follower of PC, I just cant stand hazing (See: RE: Left Handed Smoke Shifter) It seems funny the leaps that are made here, the group that said they thought singing for lost items was wrong was branded as trying to set up a perfectly safe, dissappointment free program when what we meant was, we didnt think it was right that a scout had to sing to get back a lost item. The destruction of western civilization wasnt brought up by the anti-forced signing group, just our worthy adversaries. And Bob, Dan, and Mom and anyone I missed, if I explained you wrong, please comment as much. If I am wrong I guess I should have to comb the next campboree for 50 feet of shoreline (as it will be done without a natural sourve of water I could be in for a long night) (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

While I want to see how Bob White answers, I have to add my own view. Do you know if any other adult besides the CM and the couple know about the beer "being along" on the campout? All you need is one adult who saw what happened and is waiting to see what happens. You need to follow procedure lest the unknown witness steps forward and reports the offense and then says "the trip leader knew and didnt do anything about it" Having the courage to step forth and do the right thing even when its not easy or popular is the role model I want my son to see and I think would develop more charactor than laying on the ground and frying like bacon if he misplaces his cup (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Sure, Dan and Bob are welcome, but first you guys have to know if I am sitting around a campfire, I will sing. And I can count down Green grow the rushes ho faster than anyone I know, so theres a song we will sing, and then I love to Sing Rise and Shine and of course, the adult leaders will "fall" for either the "line of suckers" or "sap running through the trees". I guarantee a fun, silly and memorable campfire and all are welcome

Is this the rules interrpretation posting thats gonna be unanamous? The rules are quite clear, no alchohol, no way no how

Tell you what, getting back to the original quesiton, let me propose this. If it was me, and I was told to get my own property back I had to sing or get on the ground and fry like bacon, I would be calling the local police to tell them someone was unlawfully holding my property. I would like to see "them" explain to the authorities how not returning property without a performance was a "charactor development ploy" Life is cruel as Rooster adroitly points out and I dont think Boy Scouts is charged with proving it to the scout. If those of you who think bullying, humiliation and embarrasement are all a way of life and are a perfectly acceptable means of teaching value and charactor lessons I would appeal to you to check your Bible, Torah, Koran, or other religious wrtitings and point out to me where it says belittling, insulting, and intimidating children is a good thing.

Ed, As the father of an ADD scout and being in a troop with 15+ ADD scouts, I can tell you lots of things get lost and having these scouts perform inane rituals to have their property returned to them serves no purpose other than to reinforce to the scout that he is somehow different than those who dont lose stuff. If you have a scout who loses everything, you have challenge to help organize him, humiliation is not at all helpful. LongHaul I did not say anything about doing stuff for the boy. I did not say a scouts errant behavior cant be talked about with him or that he gets special treatment. I can tell you its a good rule to praise in public but counsel in private. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

VH, we still misunderstand either other you wrote "... A body of factual knowledge? An understanding of how the past shapes the present? An ability to think critically about historical problems? A collection of stories about America's past that "everybody" knows and that forms part of our shared culture?...Given my choice (which, teaching undergrads, I pretty much am), I go for 2 & 3 . . . but I drive crazy those students who come wanting 1 or 4" I like the way you have it broken out, I dont understand emphasizing any one of these four over another, I think all 4 are equally important. As Patriotism is a belief, value, or whatever, I am not sure you can "teach" it. I would like to see high schools have a comparative government course where forms of government accross the globe are studied. You may not be able to teach someone to love their country, but you can certainly let them know whats availiable, the rest will take care of itself.