OldGreyEagle

Bob, you are right, all of the scouting units I have been asociated with have been church run so the question of religious principle never came up and so far neither has the gay issue. I guess the local VFW, American Legion, Lions, etc. could be run by atheist gays and those organizaitons sponsor many troops. Thats what I love about this forum, it widens my otherwise far to parachial grasp of the scouting program and the world at large.

The president of the PTA could possibly be both an atheist and gay, there is no guarantee they wont be one or the other, why put them in charge of selcting scouting unit leadership? What happens when one of a "two daddy" or "two mommy" family becomes president? or and ll "The issue is whether or not good ol' George Washington Elementary school can charter a scouting unit." EXACTLY! I dont think its a good idea for schools to charter scouting units. Bob, I know governmental units charter troops, such as the one Koreascout is in. The issue is since our government cant dicriminate based on religion ( or lack thereof) how can a governmental unit select leaders based on a discrimintory basis (one I happen to agree with) I know the Naitonal Jamboree is held on military ground, but BSA is not the only organizaiton that used military bases for various events.

I am going to take a stab at this and I have no idea if I will be succesful. What merlyn is talking about is not whether scout troops can meet in a public school or any public place for that matter what he is talking about is whether or not any governmental unit can CHARTER a scouting unit. These are two different concepts. A scouting unit is allowed to meet on public grounds (school, firehall, community center, etc) as long as that place is open to other groups as well. The issue is whether or not good ol' George Washington Elementary school can charter a scouting unit. In this example I will say a Cub pack. As a CO the school will be responsible for appointing leaders. I can see that this responsibilty is in direct conflict with the separation of church and state principle. How can the "school" select leaders who are heterosexual and suscribe to belief in God when the school cant discriminate against homosexuals and atheists? As an afterthought, why would we want Public Schools in particular to charter scouting units? Given the amount of social engineering that goes on in the public school system why would we want these people running scout units? This forum spent a lot discussing the impact the LDS church has on the program, why would we want Schools, the centers of political correctness, to run scout units? I would think we would want to decrease public school involvement in scouting, not continue or incease it.

Rooster, from all the you have written exchanged I beleive you have shown yourself and/or declared yourself to be a Christian whose faith in the bible is unshakable. If I am wrong about this, I apologize up front. It's hard not to think of your Christian right wing leanings whenever I read any of your posts. And maybe I was snippy with my "see how these Christians love one another" comment but I have to make an observation. When issues of punishment and discipline come up on this forum, it does seem many avowed Christians are the ones who want to do a lot of booting out of the program, setting expectations beyond BSA requirements and have no patience for a troubled boy. It seems like the more "committed" the Christian is, the less tolerance is shown. How do I think Christians fell if I offend them? I guess I could say that I thought they were supposed to turn the other cheek, but that would be snippy as well.

Actually since I voted for Nxon twice, so that answers the question of me being over 21. The position that BSA should take is to screen for pedophiles, not homosexuals. The last case of I know of sex abuse in a scout troop was in New York by a married man. Didnt help the victim his abuser was married.

Well, yeah, Assualt would do it for me as well, thank-you

Actually I have been camping with 16 year old daughters, I am in a Venture Crew. We have had multiple overnights. At all times Youth Protection and Guide to Safe Scouting principles are followed. Now, the question I ask isnt whether girls should camp with male heterosexuals, or boys should camp with male homosexuals or any other permutation you can think of, the issue is whether or not pedophiles should be with our children in any situation. For some of the new people to this discussion, the priest who molested me and raped my brother was not a homosexual. He did not prance, he did not lisp, he was not overly macho, he was never seenin the company of anoher adult male, he liked boys he was a pedophile, a sexual predator pure and simple. I would not be afraid to have my son stay at Elton John's house, but he wouldnt get near Michael Jackson's place. Gay does not equal Pedophile. Pedophiles can portray themselves as priests, married men, or homosexual men but they are as representative of the charactor of the group's charactor where they hide (priest, married, gay) as Slick Willy is representative of all our country's presidents.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

What type of sleeping bag do you like best?

I think it was the Romans who first commented, "See how these christians love one another..." I thought that meant everyone, not just likeminded indivuduals I thought the BSA policy was we respected everyone regardless of anything they believe, dont believe, sexual oritentation, etc. We do ask that they respect our ability to set our membership requirements. Making someone fell unwelcome is not respect and is not scoutlike. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Indeed, that was a traumatic experience. It also depressed me to no end that people would try to "slant" a poll......... And if you thuink I am naive now, remember I was the guy who went on a 8 hr snipe hunt

And yet we still argue here, what does THAT say about us both?

Good quesiton littlebillie and if that weirds you out, consider that GSUSA also allows lesbians to be leaders and yet they are not viified for being a blight on the soul of American culture. I dont understand why conservative religious factions dont assail GSUSA for allowing gays to be leaders.

Sorry Rooster, I cant let you get away with that. Just because I do not believe that homosexuality is the terrible plague on humankind that you do does not make me any less stubborn than you are for beleiving all homosexuals just need to see the error of their way. We are both stubborn, and I can admit it, can you? BTW, given my experience with such polls, I would advise against responding to this one or at the very least cast a real jaundiced eye at the results.

Just for the sake of education what did the leader do that got him banished from the troop?

I think this is a quesiton of relativity and the notion that some of us expect the troop to "do the right thing". As I understand it, the scout earned the money that is in his scout account to be used in a "scouting" manner. The scout has decided to transfer to another troop. Why shouldn't his scout account money go with him? It wasnt stated in any rules the parents received before he ammassed such a total that he couldnt transfer his account money. Now, when I say "do the right thing" I realize some on here think the money should stay with the troop. I respectfully disagree but I can understand that position, its just not mine.

I was scout as a youth in what is now Three Fires Council. Troop 65 in Wood Dale, that is a far piece for you if you that close to Elburn. I have no idea what distict it is now. Used to be Sauk District of the DuPage area council, but was long ago and I did my OA ordeal at Thunderbird by Woodridge. Is the Natokiokan lodge still operating? BTW, If the topic of singing comes up as a punishment for anything, there will be a quick call to the DE. Sorry, I have no sense of humor on this topic. Now, if I am assigned to sing in a campfire, lead a cheer or write a skit I am all there. I have a killer skit based on "Who's on first" Just a taste, so name the leaders Who is the scoutmaster, what is the senior patrol leader and I dont know the quatermaster So who is the scoutmaster right... can you see it?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

"I cried because I had no shoes until I met a man who had no feet" I guess Einstein was right, everything is relative... So, Dan, your in Three Fires Council, Fox Valley District? How far from Elburn are you? Was just up for graduation at the Kaneland High School

Thanks Jm, I think I understand what you mean and I'll just calm down. I wasnr trying to finish first, just be thinking about things, but from yours and others postings, I see that isnt the process and I want to do this right. So, thank you all and I'll be letting you know about my experience. Now, about this patrol thing...

OK, I give up, lets just drop the whole issue, I will take the classes, I will do the work, all will be revealed to me in "due time". I just dont understand why this whole thing has to be such a secretive deal. I have a Master of Public Administration Degree, and they laid out what the goals and objectives were before we started, expectations of what would be expected. I guess I am just bewildered why I cant get the same information for Woodbadge. So, like I said, I will go, I will particpate but the last time I got sucked into something like this where information was hard to come concerning the agenda, it turned out to be an Amway meeting.

Ok, I may have gotten off track here. What I am looking for are examples of what are ticket worthy items. What qualifies, one blood drive or ten? Organize a campboree for the district or council, what is the scope of the items, thats what I am talking about

While I think I understand what you are talking about Bob, the whole secrecy thing about Woodbadge bothers me. I ask about what it is, and no one will give me a straight answer. I am doing Woodbadge as a unit commissioner for my Venture Crew because I want to really develop this crew and Venturing in the Council. While I dont want anyone to reveal anything that will "ruin" the experience, I do wonder about the concept that there are not supposed to be any secret organizations in scouts and Woodbadgers seem to be as secretive as any group there is. I am doing Woodbage because I have noticed that people wearing beads seem to get "heard" at council and or district meetings while those of us with naked necks are often invisible. If its not proper for me to know more, thats ok. BTW I do know that I will be in a patrol, and you can bet I will not be singing for any lost stuff...(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Ok, I have signed up for Woodbadge, the deposit is in. All I have received so far is a 20 quesiton sheet and a notice for a class III physical and be sure to pay on time. My question is, I know I have to develop a "ticket" can you guys give me some examples of a ticket worthy thing is? The class doesnt start until late august and I would like to be thinking about it from now till then, any ideas?

Every year when we get our new scouts, at one of their first meetings, I do a scoutmaster minute (or 2-3) on the meaning of the word stewardship. I ask who's troop is it, who owns it. I eventually get around to its the church's troop, the members of the troop are just stewards, taking care of the troop during our time there and its every member's reponsibility, adult or scout to leave the troop better than we found it. The boys run the troop, the adults provide support, but we only care for the troop, its not really ours. Then I compare that with humans being stewards of the planet, we dont own it, we just live here, same as the troop, we dont own it, we just hang out here.

Bob... "when I took my first Wood Badge..."? How many times have you done it? And faceitiously, if you do it twice, can you wear 4 beads?

Interesting angle there, he made Life before you became the leader, so this is an inherited problem. You mentioned he hasnt "shown" leadership, and most likely hasnt, but the Eagle requirement is to serve in a position of responsibility for 6 months. Does his record show he did that? Another tactic maybe is to meet with the scout, tell him your concerns. Lay out what you expect of him in the next couple of months. You appear to be unimpressed with his Eagle project (as would I with him only doing 10 hrs of work), however, as it got approved, then you cant hold that against him. (I would want to talk to the Advancement chair in your District to ask him how it got approved) Then, after you have laid out your expectations, inform your Council what you did so when the family complains, they will know about it from your side first. Good luck!