OldGreyEagle

BTW, to the original question of "how much time does it take?" College, Freshman year, American History, first mid-term, essay test. One student asked the question "How long do the answers have to be" the professor's respnse "As long as it is complete". So, how much times does it take? As long as it takes. This will be different depending on the enviroment and "random operators (read parents)"

That men and women in and out of scouting have friends who are both men and women should come as no surprise to the scouts who have friends who are both boys and girls. It is the nature of these realationships that no one whether in BSA or otherwise has any business prying into. Wives and husbands kiss in the parking lot, when a football player scores a touchdown or otherwise makes a good play his butt is roundly patted, men of various ethnic backgrounds kiss each other as a standard greeting, A new brotherhood member is embraced by Allowat Sakima, I am not sure I want to judge the sexuality of each action.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Holy Cow Batman, Robin mooed bovinely With the 4th of July tomorrow I am sure we all have barbeque on our minds, but I am not sure a roasted bobwhite will serve a lot of people. And for those who think I may be the pot calling the kettle black, you are correct. I have unfortunately participated in more than my share of charactor attacks and personal insults, one such barrage was against Bob himself. However, I do understand where Bob is comming from and respect his opinions. Yes, Bob tends to express himself in Black and White only, however, for those of us who dabble in grey so much, its a good idea to have a reference point of what is BSA policy and what is not. I think the BSA position on homosexuality is wrong, but I also believe a private organizaiton has the right to make up its own rules. I see so much value in the scouting program that I would not publicly challenge the Gay position of BSA. When I was at the National Jamboree last year (WOW, its been a year already) I got in a pickup game of softball. Players were from all over the states, and maybe world, I am not sure. But we all played a game because we all knew the rules. Three strikes and your out, a ball caught on the fly was an out, and even the ethereal "infield fly rule" was invoked and honored. How could such a disparate group play a complicated game together ? Because the rules are standard and our participation implied we would follow those rules. Now, personally I would have preferred that if you fielded the ball on one hop it would be an out, or if you hit a runner with a thrown ball the runner was out(would have certainly improved my stats as a fielder) and the people playing the game could have agreed to those rules changes, but then it would not have been softball.

I am not sure heterosexuality or homosexuality has a place in scouting, any kind of sexuality has no place in scouting. I would rather have my son be in a troop with an avowed homosexual scoutmaster who follows the Guide to Safe Scouting religiously than in a troop with a heterosexual appearing scoutmaster who is a pedophile. PS Dang littlebillie, you snuck in while I was composing mine(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

If the majority rules, what happens to indvidual rights? What happens when the majority changes, what then, are laws set aside because we dont like anymore?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

We had a winter cabin campout a few years back, seems when the boys went to start breakfast they found they had stoves, griddle, etc, but no cooking utensils, only plastic forks and spoons. The scoutmaster stepped back to see what would happen. One of the kids, now an Eagle, ducktapped a pyramid of forks to gether to make a spatula. The first one had the ends melt rather quickly, but the scouts learned if they turned the heat down it would work. They also learned if they cooked with lower heat, the pancakes turned out better as well. (until then our stoves had only two settings, off and full on) at least thats what the scouts thought) Not only do the boys talk about the campout and the ducktapped "thing" they always make sure they have plenty of spatula's, serving spoons, etc. BTW The ducktapped thing is in the troops hall of fame along with a few trophy's from various events, it virtually screams "BRING UTENSILS" to all who see it. The adults were ready to bail and "go to town" to buy utensils, but the SM held firm and a great experience was had by all

Actually the first codified laws was the Hammurabi Code, a Babylonian King, thats where the expression "an eye for an eys and a tooth for a tooth comes from"

Rooster, For all our differences, we do share a lot of common ground. Abortion is murder. (period)! (exclamation point)

Dan, Tell your Little Big Man he has a salute from an OldGreyEagle.

Regardless of the intent, however noble, a troop cant add to BSA requirements.

Rooster, I read Hebrews 7, 8, and 9 and didn't get the message that priests were no longer needed. I looked back over the accounts of the Last Supper and the Ascension and saw charges from Jesus to the Apostles to go forth and teach all nations, to go and do what Jesus had done. I believe the priesthood was not abolished by Hebrews 7, 8, and 9. But lets say it did. You were raised Catholic, when did you accept that those passages rendered priests an anachronism? Did you make the discovery yourself or did some one point it out to you. Lastly, I may be so mired in my own education that I cant get past it, but without clergy, who will pass on Christianity to future generations? Who will make study of the lives and times and be able to explan the context of the bible, I am not sure that is a task lay people can be expected to bear. Respectfully OldGreyEagle(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Rooster, When you say "Second, because this redemption is for all time, we no longer require Priests or ceremonial rituals to purify and make us holy before God the Father" Do you mean the priests of the old testaments or all priests/ministers/clergy ? And while this is New Testament, while at the Last Supper Jesus said "do this in remembrance of me", was he not encouraging celebration of what Catholics call mass? The re-enactment of the Last Supper? Was he not calling on us to perform at least this ritual? Please help me understand your position on this topic

I am sorry we disagree Mom, but what the heck, we cant be a perfect match on all issues.

So littlebillie, Do you think reading the Declaration of Independece on public land is unconstitutional, yes or no? I wasnt sure what your reply means

Robin was inscensed, "Holy Smoke Batman, I forgot a whole lot. I apologize to all, I was half done with my post when it was time to take my son to the Vacation Bible School he is helping with and I got sidetracked on the flag, that wasnt my intent First, read the below, "When in the Course of human events, it becomes necessary for one people to dissolve the political bands which have connected them with another, and to assume among the powers of the earth, the separate and equal station to which the Laws of Nature and of Nature's God entitle them, a decent respect to the opinions of mankind requires that they should declare the causes which impel them to the separation. We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness...." I wonder if public readings of that document on public land will be soon considered unconstitutional ? And then again, consider these words "We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America." The blessings of liberty???, Natures God???, their Creator??? I guess thats got to go as well. Just what will Thomas Jefferson and George Washington et al think of us when the Declaration of Independence and the Preamble to the Constitution are declared unconstitutional? (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

As far as the scout not wanting to clean up the mess since he didnt eat the food, I would explain that scouts, especially while at camp, is a community, and in a community all members help each other out. Depending on age and maturity you might ask him what would happen to his school if only people with school age children paid taxes to support schools. I am sure you can think of examples similar and more local in nature. You sound like you have an adequate menu and if you have the timed honored fallback of PB&J, then thats the menu, nothing else allowed in camp unless a dietary restriction for medical or religious exists. My Eagle Scout son, (I love saying that) never ate hot dogs, said they were gross. Couldnt get him to try one. Hot dogs are frequently on our troops menus, he would say I dont like hot dogs, but I am hungry, and I would say you must not be very hungary if you wont eat whats offered. After a couple of camp outs where he ate plain buns and chips, we had a particularly grueling day. HE decided to try a hot dog. After the third one, (he is ADD)I had to tell him to stop before he got sick, he breathlessly exclaimmed "these are so good". Now, to save face, he did say he only liked "camp out hotdogs" but he eats them regularly now.

I just dont understand it, then again, I dont understand a lot of things... When I think of the images of the days post 9/11 the American Flag is prominent. Whether its the picture of the firemen raising Old Glory at ground zero or being paraded on the field during the World Series, the images are burned in my brain. The proliferation of cars sporting flags and houses adorned with flags can still be seen. The terrorists thought they could disrupt our lives and tear us apart, instead the American people solidified into the most cohesive unit I have ever seen in my lifetime. And just what was the rallying point? What prominent icon was the central point of this unification? It was the American Flag. From full 3 foot x 5 foot flags flowing off the back of Harley-Davidson motorcycles to the 3 inch x 5 inch flag taped to the family SUV antenna, we had more in common, been friendlier to each other than I ever thought possible. And now having to promise to support that flag is illegal in the country that that flag created. The study of history shows that most great civilizations crumbled from within, not by a foreign influence, it appears if the terrorists really want to do away with us, all they have to do is wait and we will do the job ourselves.

Rooster, you said "I believe there a great difference between membership in one's country (which is usually determined by birth and not choice) and membership in a volunteer organization (which is always by choice)." During the Viet Nam war many citizens of this country ended up in Canada and other countries because they said they could not support an immoral war. Several others stayed and protested within the country. Personally I will always have more respect for those who stayed and worked for change from within than those who left. I can choose to go to a country that outlaws abortion, but the USA has so many things right with it in other areas, I think I may just have to stay and work within the system.

As a self-professed mackerel snapper, just what is a dunk-head anyway? This forum can make my blood rush with indignation and totally destroy my already fragile ego by the myriad facts on topics I never heard of, the discussion of bonobo things (apes or monkeys? I dont remember what they were determined to be)the tenents of reformed Judiasm and episcolians acceptance of gays, the "right" way to run a troop per the offical BSA rules. I am at once forever grateful I found this place and vexed by all I read which I never knew before. And all because I used to think Boy Scouts was a neat way for a father and son to spend time together, it is so much more

Bubba, I dont know if the LDS ban on polygamy was based on politics or morals. Hopefully a LDS member will chime in with that knowledge. I do know the reason polygamy got started in the LDS was because enough of their men were lynched, murdered, executed, etc. by other wise God fearing citizens that to maintain their numbers, the leaders thought best to allow polygamy rather than allow their young women to marry outside of their faith. Talk about changing morals. All the LDS church wanted was to be left alone and they were chased from New York to Illinois and finally to Salt Lake City in a country founded with freedom of/from worship as a main principle. As for you explanation of women, I miss it, try typing slower as I cant read very fast

Bubba, Polygamy has been banned in the LDS for over a hundred years. Yes, you can find highly publicized stories of a husband and multiple wives who profess to be LDS, but they have as much relevance to the LDS church as David Korresh in Waco had to being Christian or the Freeman in Montana had to being American citizens Or that Eagle scout who assisted in Matthew Shepards murder(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Rooster, I've got to disagree with your logic. I don't like the fact abortion is legal in the United States. However, I do not contemplate leaving American society because of one issue it allows that I vehemently am opposed to. I will work within the system to change the system. Bubba, In any form misogyny is hateful, boys shouldnt know women can be strong resourceful role models? Women have their place in scouting? In Cubs with the little boys and in Committee positions only? But when the men hit the woods its males only??? What message are we sending there? I would like to know why women cant be "hands on leaders"

NJ, like I said, I may not have it worded right, but if you read the third paragraph of my post, I said whether or not the perp was homo or heterosexual. I would not distinguish between troops, all troops would need the insurance. If a CO approves an alchoholic as an adult leader and the leader while drunk causes ain injury or death, shouldn't the CO be held responsible? It was just a thought to force more CO activity, but if its unworkable, I have other things I can ponder(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Spent the weekend cooking hotdogs in a coke wagon and had a lot of time to think as I was rolling the weiners over the grill. The basis of American government and our culture is compromise. First, I think the BSA ban on Gay leaders is wrong. Second, I never thought the local option idea was workable, that any change would have to be an all or none proposition on a national level, but I have an idea that I would like to toss out for opinions. The concept actually strengthens the role of the Chartering Organization. BSA would charge the CO with approval of all adults in their scouting units. Actually this is nothing new, they do this now. If the CO wanted to accept a gay leader that would their decision. Now, the BSA would also require a million ( or other figure to be determined) dollar insurance policy from the CO payble to a scout who is proven to have been sexually abused by a leader in that unit. This would be true whether or not the perp was homo or hetero sexual. Maybe the insurance policy isnt a workable idea, but something of that nature. With all the lawyers on this forum, I am sure someone can word this better than I. The overall idea is BSA says to the CO, ok we dont thnk a gay leader is a good idea, but if you vouch for his charactor and will become legally responsible for his actions as a scouter thats ok but if he injures one of our members, we will sue the CO and aid the victim in suing the CO as well. Just a thought, what do you think?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Bob and Ed, as much fun as it is watching you two butt heads, I have to join in. I think I understand both of your positions. Bob, your saying the Scoutmaster really cant refuse to let a scout work on a merit badge the scout wants to do, and Ed, you think the scoutmaster should apply some common sense to the process. Now, if a brand new scout, age 11 years old wanted to do the Personnel Management merit badge, I would be hesitiant because at 11 most kids arent ready to understand most of the content of the badge and it may make more sense that this badge be earned when the scout is older. Bob, and Ed, what would both/either of you say about this? Then another situation is shotgun shooting. Our summercamp uses 12 gauge shotguns, the troop has a standing policy that 11-12 year olds cant take the shotgun shooting merit badge at camp unless the family verifes the scout uses a 12 gauge. This is a safety issue to us. Bob and Ed, what do both/either of you think of this policy? I think I see where you both are comming from, I would like to see some examples of what your positions are.