OldGreyEagle

What is more important here, the correct use of the word Hazing or an attitude of how scouts and scouters are to be treated?

wow, havent been dressed down for quite awhile, almost forgot what it was like can I prevent what happened to me from continuing? Nope, I do want to express how I felt. If you think you can pull off a prank and know your youth, how you behave is up to you Maybe the focus is in the wrong place. According to Beavah its not hazing, perhaps not, its merely being unscoutlike. What you call it is not as important as the lessons that are learned. If you are ok with that, I wish you well

You like Snipe Hunts Pappa Daddy? Think they are great fun? It was a long time ago, in a place far far away, well, actually Chicago area, about 1965 or so. I was a bright young scout, really Gung Ho. I thought being a scout was the bestest thing in the whole world. On one summer campout. we drove for what seemed like hours. We got to the campsite and set up.. The Troop used an Army surplus 16X16, that thing was huge, and it was heavy and we all loved it. After the tent was up and the gear stowed, Charlie, the SPL came over and told me he needed my help. I was in like 7th heaven. Charlie was like a god to us younger scouts, he had his license and his own car. It was a 57-58 Chevy, it was painted candy apple red and roared like a jet, that car was cool. Rumor was he shaved everyday and had a girl friend. I fairly floated as we walked over to the group of older cooler scouts. Finally I was going to be part of the in crowd. I was to be the bag man on a snipe hunt. It was simple, all I had to do was stand on the Snipe trail and hold the bag open and the Snipe would run straight into it. Now, wait I said, I know what a Snipe hunt is, and I am not going to do it. I felt a lot let down that Charlie thought I was stupid enough to fall for a gag like that. So then Charlie says, well, you are right, but you know, Snipes are birds and we happened to have driven into where they live. So, I bought it. I went out and held the bag, and held it, and held it and held it. Well, back at camp the older scouts sure were having a party at my expense, they had this kid who knew about Snipe Hunts out on a Snipe Hunt, it was glorious. The adults on the trip knew what was going on, and reminded them that I was supposed to be brought back to camp about 1 am if I didnt show up first. Back at the Snipe Trail I stood, bag open. I knew Snipes were rare birds and figured we had driven long enough to get in their range. I waited, and waited. Along about dawn I figured I had waited long enough. Seems the older scouts got their signals crossed and everyone thought someone else would get me, but nobody did. I got back to camp as breakfast was being made, and when I was spotted, the whole camp cheered, laughed and hooted. I was not having a fun time. I remember thinking, remember this moment, remember how hot your cheeks feel, how angry you are, you are never ever going to feel this way again. A few months later it was the Fall Camporee. Charlie again asked me for some help. I asked him what, I was more than a little suspicious of anything he said at this point. He told me he needed the Camps Canon Report. It has the schedule of the Camporee on it and it was floating around the camp and people would get it, copy it down and pass it on. So, after being assured it was real, I went off. Gol dang it if every troop I visited had just had it but passed it along minutes before I got there. I went to over 10 troops before a kindly old scoutmaster who knew my dad from work asked me if I had ever been on a Snipe Hunt,. I almost fainted. The rage, anger, fear, humiliation just ran through me like an electric shock. He had done it to me again. I walked back to camp, slinked actually, imagining all who saw me were laughing behind my back, pointing me out as that absolute and complete idiot. When I got back to camp, I walked up to Charlie and told him I was sorry, but I didnt get it, but I would go after it first thing in the morning. I never did go after it and I never talked to Charlie again. I never did anything he said and completely blocked him and all his older buddies out. I learned never, ever to trust what a boy leader said because they were out to get me. As time went on, I made sure that no other scout ever went through what I did. I would tell all the new scouts about snipe hunts and canon reports and all that. I told them if anyone asked them to do anything that didnt sound right, to ask me first. I had a few angry older scouts, but I didnt care and I was getting big enough that nobody retaliated. I eventually was elected Senior Patrol Leader because the scouts knew I would not betray them I did not have great fun

Singing for lost stuff has never made sense to me. You have the kid who loves and craves attention and will "forget" stuff just so he can perform in front of others and the kid who is so painfully shy he will not venture out of his tent because he could lose something and have to be in front of others. Doing pushups as punishment? So, the musclehead who can snap off 20 pushups in 10 seconds gets to pretty much act like the jerk he is because pushups are easy for him while the scout lacking in upper body development has to toe the line because they have difficulty with the consequences To me, hazing is about humiliating and using power to entertain at the expense of others. ANd yes, hazing has touched me personally, I will spare my story but when it occurred to me I lost all respect for those involved

"When a Scout tells me he is an "atheist," I ask him to memorize and then explain in his own words what Carl Sagan reported to be Einstein's summary of Spinoza's pantheist definition of God: " Memorize? Explain in own words? Sounds like more academic clap-trap and book work homework, exactly what Baden-Powell did not want scouting to be... Leastwise thats what I have been told

Eveyone realizes I was trying to answer the question of where it says no gays? If I didnt do a good job, its because BSA doesnt do a good job

Page 2 of the adult application says: Leadership Requirements The applicant must possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities that the Boy Scouts of America deems necessary to afford positive leadership to youth. The applicant must also be the correct age, subscribe to the precepts of the Declaration of Religious Principle, and abide by the Scout Oath or Promise, and the Scout Law. OK, it has some holes. But, when it says "possess the moral, educational, and emotional qualities", one has to ask How is thid defined, well, not being Gay is one. How do I know this? Instinct? Being aware of the current feeling of the Organization I belong to I know what the statement means. When I joined the Knights of Columbus, I knew I would be with other Catholic Gentlemen and have not asked to let my wife join or my Babtist buddy

That noise you hear in the background is an axe being ground to a fine edge... Not to say that Fred doesnt have a point however...

More likely if that scout becomes an adult leader, in 6-7 years he will be at the adult campfire complaining how none of the yourh does anything he says, paybacks are a ...

So you allow scouts to destroy property and face no consequences because you cant or choose not to do anything,,, does not sund like you at all BD

he burned a quart of hand cleaner? When he was supposed to be doing something else? Makes me wonder when does burning a quart of hand sanitizer ever become the assigned activity? He broke into your personal property (tackle box) to use a your property (lighter) to destroy your property (fishing line)and he is still not facing a suspension or other disciplinary action? He cleaned out the patrol box supply of matches? What would he have to do to receive consequences for his actions?

My mother made a quilt, simple block design with a Fleur de lis quilted in the center of each block and a patch in the center of each Fleur de lis, it had the community strip of my boyhood troop and troop number and each rank patch, merit badges and camporee patches and event patches, its an idea for quilters

So, I had a similar circumstance back when I walked the ivy covered walls of Acadamia as a teacher I had been warned of the possibility of student crushes and come ons. So, I thought about it and thought I was ready, I had a prepared speech about how I loved my wife and I would not betray her and the student should regard me as a mentor and nothing else. The only problem was when I was confronted with the student who was "in love" with me, it wasnt one the comely coeds Tampa Turtle talked about. It was a tall muscular wrestler and I was the subject of his affections. Never saw that one coming.... at all

Mom, all I can say is that just because someone is a scouter dosen't mean they can't also be an ass. We prove that around here on a regular basis

I thought I was agreeing with Kudu, and I just wanted assurance that there were enough interested adults with outdoor skills to meet the demand Did not realize my sentence structure would be a target when I was agreeing...

No, I don't I have it wrong. Kudu says that 70% of sixth graders want to be boy scouts if scouting is presented as a dangerous outdoor activity. I think that Kudu, you and myself are pretty sure that BSA outdoor training is not sufficient to train adults to present a program that the youth will view in any way close to a dangerous outdoor activity. I want to know if there are enough volunteers who can handle the 70% of sixth graders who want scouting if its a dangerous outdoor activity. Just becase you were a scout does not mean you have outdoor skills. We here decry the erosion of outdoor skills since 1972, how good are older scouts with ourdoor skills anyway? Oh, and it was said "So now you have also attracted sedentary adult leaders and that just compounds the problem tenfold." I have been accused of an awful lot here, but this, this is pretty much the feather in my cap. I am responsible for the sendentart leaders in the BSA, I am not sure to be ashamed or proud of my influence

Kudu, You are correct you will need to get outdoor training from some where's else, there is not enough competent outdoor types in scouting to train outdoor skills. But are there enough adults who want to participate in Scouting who are willing to get the outdoor skills necessary to present Scouting as an dangerous outdoor adventure even if half of those 70% join?

If indeed 70% of sixth graders (not disputing the number) want to join Boy Scouts if its presented as a dangerous outdoor adventure, do we have enough adults who can present a dangerous outdoor adventure to those youth?

Kudu says You know...(at least for outdoor boys)...a program designed to make Scouts "completely happy." That may be the issue as simply distilled as possible. Its not about Total Available Youth, its about Total Available Youth who are Outdoor boys (Or girls for Venturing) And so the issue becomes do you keep a program for Outdoor Boys purely for Outdoor Boys while that demographic shrinks or do you change the proram to attract Not Outdoor Boys in the hope of exposing them to the Outdoors at least some It is a difference of Philosophy

So, if you want to camp more, who is saying not to?

So, TT I was in Tampa, just for Thursday, flew in Wednesday PM and left 5pm Thursday. Was actually in St Petersburg but I digress Way back in 2011 I went to the National Jamboree as a Second Asst Scoutmaster, in the Council I serve, that means Quartermaster. Well, it rained and it rained and soon the campsite had a raging torrent running through half of it. I had the scouts move the tents in the midst of the forming rapids and place them next to the tents on higher ground. These were BSA wall tents, Two Uprights, a ridge pool and 4 corner poles. Well, there was not much space between tents at this point and the boys were having a hard time making the tents stay up as the length of the guy ropes were to long to have the slides work. One of the youth said we should cut the ropes. I was aghast. I said take off the slide, tie a sheepshank to shorten the rope and then a taut line hitch to tighten the line. I was met with blanker stares than one gets at a zombie mob. I showed the boys what I was talking about and eveyone loved the "new" skill I taught them. The Sheepshank, the taut line hitch they knew (!)

Eng asked: "If this situation happened in a school setting (public or private) how would it get handled?" He would be handed an application to join the The Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual, Transgender and Straight Alliance and that would be it (This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)

Pardon me, I have been away on a trip but I find this topic distressing A scout knows his scout skills, because its what a scout does. A scouting requirement is a step in the program. He learns to tie a square knot and bowline because he will need to be using square knots and bowlines and reading a compass and everything else and if he does not, and the Troop does not expect him to do these things, then why is the youth a scout and why does the Troop exist? To produce Eagles? The Troop program is supposed to be Outdoor based and scout skills prepare the youth to be outdoors and active and if that is too much, I shudder The Horror, The Horror

Whenever I go to Camp, my good friend Pierre Alloyious DuMonde also goes. Pierre is a 1780-1840's Voyageur turned trapper who hangs around Troop outings on occasion. This year, Pierre had a surpise comming. He was in the opening Campfire, and was told when to make his entrance. His thought was to wait until the stage was empty and then walk down the center aisle and turn around to say "bon jour", well, when the appointed time came, his way was blocked by another "Voyageur", Dippin' Dave was the sobriquet, and Dave was there to get his participants for the week long Canoe trip the Camp runs. After a quick introduction, Pierre and Double D came up with a plan. After the preceeding skit was done, Ol' Pierre comes walking down the aisle and gives a huge, "Bon Jour Mes Aime" and told about what he had done for the last year after camp. Especially detailed was his report on what he did during Christmas vacation when he cremated Sam McGee (See Robert Service) From what I understand, the place was dead silent as Pierre wound down, he had them solid in the palm of his hand. Then Pierre introduced Dippin' Dave and was off. From time to time during the week, I had staff and Campers tell me what a great job Pierre did with the poem, and while Pierre was down helping at the Rifle Range (Camp School SHooting Sports Director, NRA Instructor in Rifle, Pistol, Muzzleloader, Shotgun and Range Safety Officer) I never did see him. Although, as much as I get mistook for Pierre, he must be one heck of a good looking man. Pierre killed the closing Campfire with "the Voyageur" by William Henry Drummond, again introducing Dippin' Dave and his crew.

What was the basis of the Inquisition anyway? Rumors? From where? What does the Guide to Safe Scouting say? Notify your Scout executive of this report, or of any violation of BSAs Youth Protection policies, so that he or she may take appropriate action for the safety of our Scouts, make ppropriate notifications, and follow-up with investigating agencies. Then again, if there was no youth protection policy violation, why the Inquisition? The prurientcy shown by the adults is unsettling to say the least. If there is an issue that needs to be reported, then it gets reported according to the Guide to Safe Scouting, if there is nothing to report, then guess what there is nothing to report