OldGreyEagle

I would hate to lose a scout because they couldnt afford the troops full uniform. Having said that, I could see a phase in period. Announce at the first Sept meeting that starting next Sept a full uniform (read pants/shorts) will be required. Announce every COH and in every mailing and 2 times a month. Next sept will be very soon. New scouts likewise would have one year to get pants/shorts. You can set a policy and deadline.

Rooster, all the reasons you list are quite valid reasons that a boy would drop out of scouts. Any one or combination could do it. At the risk of repeating myself,(cuz I am going to) If a troop has a well run program they wont need a list of "could it be ..." They will know why each scout dropped out. They will know why each scout dropped out because everytime a scout didnt attend a meeting the patrol leader, or in a new scout patrol, the troop guide called the scout, told him how much he was missed and filled the scout in on the announcements that the scout missed. If the scout says he didnt come cause he quit, the patrol leader/guide asks why and just listens. This is communicated to the scoutmaster who calls and talks to scout and parents. Our troop knows why we lose the scouts we do. And the scouts who leave know they are wanted and welcome to come back anytime they want, and some do.

Another Bear? Our "cheer" is ::head straight:: Oh! ::head turned to the right and down:: Bother! Our Song? Bear down, Da Minsi Bears Make every day a step to victory Bear down, Da Minsi Bears We will never forget Gilwell Park and its history We will never forget our fascination With coping with all the information Bear down, Da Minsi Bears Let them know you are wearing the crown Our pride and joy though others we annoy Da Minsi Bears, Bear Down!!!

To me FCFY means the troop has an organized, structured program with well ahead of time scheduled and publicized events that present the scout with the opportunity to make first class in one year. In our troop, our advancement chair always has lists of requirements that each scout needs to make first class (praise troopmaster)handed to the trip leader. ASM are assigned/volunteer for requirements and are assigend a senior scout or scouts. The troop is informed of the schedule, with frequent reminders. Stove safety at 10:00, firebuilding at 11:00, knots at 2:00 etc. As scouts fulfill the requirements, it is so indicated on the printout which goes back to the advancement chair for entry in the computer. We have a handful of adults who work one on one with scouts who need requurements not scheduled to be presented. Once the skill is presented by the senior scouts it is reviwed and the scouts practice and then they are tested. If they dont pass the test, they dont get signed off. On the next camp out they are on the one on one list. This is an example of a winter cabin campout. If a scout chooses to sled all weekend, thats fine. Attendance on the trip is kept as well at attendance at each skills session. If a question arises by a parent why the kid isnt advancing, we can show why. On a canoe trip or backpacking hike etc., obviously the emphasis is different. But the mechanics are the same. We have the requirement lists. The scouts who need to spot animals or animal signs are grouped with a senior scout and adult. The scouts who need to identify poison plants are together, the ones who need compass work, etc. After dinner and clean-up it may be time to find your way at night or make a useful camp gadget. The kids either are doing or helping present. Now, thats how we do it. What do you all think, is this proper or not?

It could be that the Council Executive told his employees to go do Wood Badge, but I dont think so. If you go back to the summer camp section, you will see that I said our troop would have the Council Exective with us all week. You will also notice in my railings against scouting professionals I always exempted our Council Executive. The reason? The Council Executive is an ASM in our troop as his son crossed over to us in Feb. While at camp he and two other ASM guided the 22 First Year scouts we had in camp (62 total scouts at camp)through the first year program. He was always a supportive member of out leadership team. Maybe he did tell his employees to take Wood Badge, if he did he would know its benefit, as he wears his beads proudly. He is the reason I started this whole topic. He is such a breath of fresh air. The current CE is visible, personable, and gives the impression he cares about what you tell him (I guess it could be phony, but the other guy didnt even try to put on an act) All I want is to have the impression the professionals understand the program. I have it so much more now than ever before. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

We have read a lot about a 50 percent drop out rate or so from programs assesed to be "good" by the leaders of the program, and here is a thought. Instead of explaining away the reasons, has any troop done a retention study. Actually asked the boys why they quit? And the asking being done by a scout, not an adult. If you are right, you have your proof and all is well, if you are wrong, you will know the exact particulars. BTW, just for kicks, the people who admit the 50 percent drop out rate, do you have a minimum attendance policy?

Growing up in the Chicago Suburbs in the 60's my heroes were predictable, Butkus, and Sayers. As time went on other names have been added to the list, Fencik and Payton amoung others. When I signed in at Wood Badge, I was hoping to be an Eagle, but I found out that I shall forever be a Bear, and an good ol' bear at that. I guess I should have known all the time. My Official NFL bears towel is our interim banner until a "real" flag may be made. Fate sure is strange. I know a lot of us are taking Wood Badge at this time. Anyone want to share anything?

I debated posting this, and then I debated whether to make this its own thread or tack it on to the Perceptions about Scouting Professionals. I even debated burying this in another thread or just never talking about it. And if you think thats confusing, I think all four of my personalities are exhausted. Just back from the first three days of Woodbadge. I knew a fellow ASM form my troop would be there, imagine my delight to find two other commitee members from my troop there as well. They had just recently decided to "take the plunge" While I was basking in that warm and fuzzy glow, I recognized our District Executive in a Patrol. He wasnt visititng, he is taking the course! Then, at another patrol table, I saw another of the Council's District Executives, also enrolled in the course (there are 45 attendees). My head was swimming, and then, one of the Council's Field Directors is introduced as the assistant Scoutmaster for the course. To top it off, the Council Executive was there for lunch, and hung around a bit. A scout has to be honest. I have to say my perceptions about my Councils professionals were wrong and you can be sure I will tell other scouters that the execs were there.

Slow down Insane, I knew what you meant. I just wanted you to think about the use of the word "weird" and how it might sound if you spoke it and it got back to some parents in the troop. I know your heart is in the right place and I will be on your side every step of the way.

Bob, you have made the point that I was going after. I accept all you say as true, the question is why is the volunteer's perception of the professional so poor? If the preception is all wrong, why is that way? How can we account for so many of us being so wrong? What needs to change so that professionals are seen in a much better or rather more accurate light?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Here's a thought... For our October Boy Scout Roundtable meeting, our District is holding a 2nd year Webelos night. All the troops in the Distrct (who show up) will have a banquet table assigned to them. The troops may set up any display they wish and hand out as much or as little information as they wish. Last year this was done for the first time. Several troops had Poster Board displays and Power point presentations. Information about the meeting was through the Cub packs. Since it was determined some Cubmasters didnt pass information about the meeing on, this year the District is sending all 2nd year Webelos specifics on this meeting by good ol' snail mail actual letters.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I am sorry, as I must be getting the Pre-WoodBadge jitters, (I leave in the morning at 7:00am)and am not able to communicate my thoughts. My whole reason for this thread is the perception that some of us volunteers have for professional scouters. I do not think it is an overstatment that most of the posters on this forum have do not have a very high opinion of professional scouters. If I am wrong, please posters, let me know and I will gladly apologize. The issue at hand is the perception, right or wrong that professional scouters do little to help the exisitng units. Whether right or wrong, thats the preception. If its the job of the volunteers to dispel this perception, I havent seen a lot of effort. In fact the groups you mention, Training, Commissioners, etc often lead the whining about Council. Maybe to be positive, we could give ideas on what executives could do that would bolster their image while not going outside their role in scouting. Personally I would like to see District Executives at District functions and the COuncil Exec at Council functions. I dont think it unreasonable to expect an Eagle scout to be able to recognize his District and Council Exec.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Bob, the issue here is something an old personnel director buddy always says "perception is reality". Regardless of the defined proper roles of Council/District Executives, if the volunteers see them only as money and members advocates, then a problem exists. Now resolution may be in the form of the volunteers understanding their own role, but also helpful would be professional staff who were sensitive to the stereotypes held about them and would work to dispel them. Perhaps all the proessional staff I have met were dedicated to BSA, but because of their behavior, I was put off. If I implied that the executives were responsible for running a quality program, I apologize for my clumsy wording. I didnt mean to imply that. It would just help if I felt they were supporting our efforts for quality rather than numbers.

In the Cub Scout section under Neckerchiefs Yaworski made a claim that money is a driving force in Boy Scouts. I agreed with him, Bob White said that on the issue that was being discussed, neckerchiefs, that the deciscion to have various neckerchiefs for the different ranks of Cubs was not made by professionals. Ok, it wasnt. I thought it best to take this discussion off the neckerchief thread and put it here. The point I make is in my 5 years as a Scouter in my current location I have been met more than a few professional scouters. I think most were more rabid about raising money and increasing membership than actually providing a quality program. One notable exception is our current Council Executive. The quesiton is do you (scouts and scouters) beleive that your council/disrict professional staff is more interested in providing a quality program or pumping up funds and units regardless of quality and why?

I didnt know there was an official BSA boxing glove, I thought Boxing was prohibited... Wait, was that an attempt at humor??? It was, it was, and dead on the mark as well, very well done as well! Jocularity, Jocularity, I love it!!!

What's so weird about having single parents mother's raising a scout? There is at least one on this forum that you or any troop would be lucky to have, and she is trained. What's so weird about grandparents raising grandchildren? I applaud you and your father for your efforts, but dont make it harder than it will be about pre-conceived notions of what a "weird" home life is, focus on the boys and help where ever you find it, we are rooting for your success!

The problem is, I agree with Yaworski on this one. Bob, you may see things differently, but from my experience most scouting professionals prize money and membership more than an actual quality program.

OOH OOH, I love seasoning I admire good analogy Anyway, maybe we can give examples of what is and isnt altering the program. I believe a troop cannot have attendance requirements as a criteria for advancement, but may place an age limit (such as 14) for High Adventure Trips) or require performance proof(such as the first class swim test) for canoe trips I also think it would be a good idea to require the adults to pass the first class swim test as well before they can go on a canoe trip.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Sctmom, I beleieve you once said that your parents, as nice as they were, let you and your siblings quit many activities and you wished they hadnt let you. Now the shoe is on the other foot. As an aside, I wish all the scouts in my troop had at least one parent as involved and concerned for their boy as you are.

I think this would be an old "den mothers" rather female Den Leader's uniform right?

Our troop also has had a run of Eagles. When my son startd with the troop there were about 7 boys who started together, all were totally gung ho, as were their families. Of those 7 families 11 trained adult leaders emerged. As you may imagine, all 7 boys are Eagle or nearly so and most have served as SPL. It got to a point that the word was you had to have an ASM or committee member as a parent to be SPL. Of course not, but it seemed that way. Kids with invovled parents tend to do better than kids with apathetic parents (who knew?) Educators will tell you a kid with limited academic ability but a committed family will nearly always blow by the more intelligient student with a shambles of a home life. Anyway, a general comment I have is how much I have learned over the past two year posting on this forum. How much deeper the Boy Scout program is than I ever imagined. I also have to comment that the quality of program is so diverse its scary. When I meet other adults and talk gets around to hobbies, I always say I am a scouter and made Eagle as a scout. Most of the men I meet always say they were in scouts, most dropped out before they made first class usually because the SM was such a pain, or we never did anything or I wanted to be a scout, but I played sports. It bothers me when I hear that from adults and I wonder how much different the reasons from the kids of scout age now will be, likely not much.

Rooster, I am gonna take a shot at explaining "Adaptation". Bear with me as its been a few years since I read "Origin of Species". This is purely a fictionally made up account of how I understand adaptation. In a secluded area there may be a herd of antelope and a pride of lions. As the antelope are the lions prime food source, the slower antelopes fall prey easier than faster ones. Over time as the slower animals contribute less and less to the herd's gene pool.The average speed of the herd increase as only the fastest animals are around to breed. Each individual animal isnt thinking, gee, I got to make my child faster, the animals that are the fastest tend to live, mate with other fast antelope and have fast off spring. Being the fastest is an example of "Survival of the fittest Now, of course the same thing may happen with the lions. Now that the Antelope are faster, its harder to catch them. Having a hide/skin color that best blends in with the native vegetation is an asset as it makes being spotted by the antelope harder. Over time having a lighter colored skin helps make the lion a more successful hunter. Over a period of years the prides hides lighten because its the most successful hunters that survive. The lions didnt learn it would be a good idea to have a lighten hide, the ones who had it were able to breed, the others didnt. Now, antelope that have better eyesight than the norm are able to detect the lighten hided lions. As soon as they see them, they take off. Antelope that dont have as good eyesight get eaten. It could be the animals with the better eyesight arent as fast as the antelope they leave behind, but they get way first. Before, being the fastest was prized, now its having the most acute eyesight. Now, not being the fastest but having keen eyesight is an example of "Survival of the fittest". Then the lions.... Ok, I think I can stop now. The animals didnt "learn" anything. The environment in which the animals lived dictated what chacteristics were neccessary to survive. The fastest antelope, and then the lighter hided lions and then the sharp eyesighted antelope were natrually selected for survival(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

::extending hand up to sctmom:: ::bowing:: First I would would like to thank the lovely and gracious sctmom for opening this thread, I had a similar idea but she has started it off so very well. As you give your thoughts, I would like to know how many scouters here do not have a son (or daughter) in the pack, troop, or crew in which you are invovled. In my area almost all of the scouters on the unit level have children in the units. I would like to know how common it is to be a scouter without a youth in the program.

One of my favorite movies of all times is "White Christmas", you know, Bing Crosby, Danny Kay, et al. I remember in particular a scene when the Bing Crosby character is rememiscing about General Waverly, the now down on his luck owner of the ski lodge. Bing remembers "First the men ate, then he ate... first the men slept and he slept..." I always thought that was the perfect description of a leader, putting his needs subordinate to the needs of the group. I can think of no better role model to follow than an older scout who is helpful, friendly, courteous, kind, cheerful to me. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

In our area, the Council gets 33% of the profit, the troop takes 33% and the scout gets 33% in his account. Last year we used the tiered system I spoke about if you sold over 300 I think you got 40% and the troop less, if they went to 1000 (we have about 5-6 in this range)they got 50% of the profit. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)