OldGreyEagle

When I was a scout, it was not unusual to see the SM and ASMs have a can of beer or two after dinner and my father was one of them. Every scout knew the beer was for the adults and that was it. I have often thought that rather than have the BSA require us to pretend alchohol doesnt exist, a far more effective role model would be to show that you can have a beer, a glass of wine, that single malt and enjoy it and then stop. That you can drink alchohol and not act stupid. The problem is, as was pointed out, all it takes is one abuser, one accident, some tragedy where a leader was drinking, and not even to excess and BANG, the whole organization is in it deep.

Is that what they call win - win and two trained leaders to boot? Win, WIn and Win

Sorry to hear that Ed, lets try again tonight at 10 EST http://groups.yahoo.com/group/scouter_chat/chat

Lets try again? Tomorrow (SUnday Sept 1 at 10:00 Pm EST? Anyone?

Dont worry Bob White, I am honored you trusted me with it and I would not break that confidence for any amount of money. Before we "out" ourselves, I suggest we all go back and read the Internet Stalking thread in the general program section. Besides, I may be wrong, but I hear tell that not everyone is who they claim to be on the internet. Not all the self-proclaimed scouters may actually be scouters, anyone can post here. I mean I have heard about informative issue oriented boards almost being destroyed by someone who posts trash, insults other posters and otherwise takes the focus off the topics at hands. There may be people gathering information from our posts, number of children, ages, activities, location etc. who never post here. Obviously everyone here is free to behave as they will, but first read the internet stalking story and then think about revealing personal information. I dont see black helicoptors but I do see Internet pervs.

Bringing this forward, see reference in the Politics and Issues section, "bullying incident"

Good points Ed, I hadnt thought of that possibility. Whatever the younger scout had said, it didnt mean the older scout was right in denying access to the chair, but perhaps the reponse form the older scout was brought about by something the younger one said. The reasons the younger one could have waited until later to tell the adults range from the youunger scout being so terrified from the experience, that it took till then to calm down enough to talk about it. Another possibility is that it didnt effect him at all, and after dinner he was talking to his friends about it and perhaps one or more "put him up to it", telling the adults about the incident to get the older one in trouble. That the incident didnt mean anything to anybody. Could have been a "you didnt give me my chair back and I an gonna tell Mr Scoutmaster" All the more reason to report it to council, have an independent investigation and matter aired and cleared. Then 2 years from now, when a prospective scout's parent asks "I heard a scout from your troop tried to rape another scout on a campout", you have an independent report documenting what happened. The key is the sexual comments, whether actually intended or not. I think a sex abuse investigator would have no problem investigating a claim where no abuse is found, why not have an official record ? Personally I didnt report the sex abuse I received by the parish priest at age 12 until I was 35. Reasons vary.

What did the father do? I think if this group is going to give good advice, we need a good history. What exactly happened? It may have been poor manners, but not a violation of BSA policy. I agree with Rooster that if a father is 'disciplining" his son, its hands off, at least until the bamboo cane comes out. Can you give some details?

ADD, ADHD does exist, therein lies the problem. It does exist, but I have to say not the extent it is diagnosed by "the school system". Our troop has several ADD'ers, having the troop commitee chair be a Pediatrician will do that. We have some kids we can tell when its medication time because of behavior pattern. Then again, the school system thrives on well behaved kids who sit still and dont move. Anyone outside that model must be ADD and medicated. The problem is, ADD kids are usually highly distractable when bored, but give them a topic they like, an activity they love and they can block out distractions (such as eating or toilet duties for hours). I have always wondered why its the kids fault for being distractable and never the teachers responsibility to present the material in an interesting way to the kids. My son had a teacher who I think is adult ADD, never stands still, he bounces all over the class room, keeps changing locations and speech volume and has all the kids transfixed, they never let him out of their sight because they dont know what he would do next. Funny how all the perceived ADD'ers could concentrate with him. Sctmom, with all the good you see boy scouts doing for your son, please do not allow him to drop out just yet. There is so much more to do than he has done. You see the benefits, this is worth a huge effort (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I understand about a changing of the guard and allowing the new leaders to put their own stamp on the troop. But they have to accomplish this in the context of the policies and procedures of BSA. And the P&P of BSA says you cant add or subtract from the requirements. I think you dont want to make waves as you ease out, but I dont think you can ignore blatant violations of policy either.

Ed, I understand the younger scout didnt say anything when the older scout took the younger scouts chair, should he have said " you know thats my chair and I do want it back"? Should he have to? Would the older scout have acted any different? The fact he took it doesn't bother me, the fact he didnt give it back does. And you have asked a few times if the younger boy did anything to provoke the incident. I guess he did, perhaps he should not have shared his chair with the other boy. I am not sure what you mean, do you think the younger boy wanted to be bullied? While I dont think the boy should be thrown out of scouts, the incident needs to be reported. If the Council investigation comes up with nothing, then its on the record as nothing. Right now, there is no offical record. This may seem trivial but this is similar to an event that happened in my troop a few years back. While on a winter cabin campout, a new Assistant Scoutmaster walks in to room where some of the older boys are passing around a Penthouse magazine. The boys quickly try to shove it out of sight, but the ASM calls them on it and identifies it and says put this away and I'd better not see it again this weekend. By the next campout the word on the new ASM was that he enjoys porn and had huge collection in his basement. By not reporting it to the scoutmaster, or at the very least not confiscating it and returning it to the scouts parents, he implied it was ok as long as the scouts didnt get caught. He tried to be a "nice guy" and the kids trashed his reputation because they knew whay they were doing was wrong. I would rather have council say there is nothing here, than have a spectre lingering over my head.

rlculver415 Sounds worthy of a double posting, here and in the "Very Short Scoutmaster Minutes" You go girl!!!

Ed the scout is quoted as saying: "I know you want to get it on with me. Come here and do it with me," How do you see this as not a sexual reference? What does "get it on" and "do it" mean to you? Even without the perceived sexual references, the older scout denied the younger scouts access to the younger scouts property. That alone should earn him some type of corrective action.

"What is truth ? Is truth unchanging laws? We both have truths, are mine the same as yours?" Pontius Pilate Jesus Christ Superstar Yaworski, The truth is I find many of your postings to be rude, crude and beyond the limits of a gentleman, let alone a Scouter. It appears phrases like "trying to get into the pants of one of the girls" and "cajones" and other vulgar if not obscene comments trip off your keyboard with regularity. The truth is you have no idea of what my views or others posters views on world politics are. The truth is no matter what is said, you will continue to be you, and you have every right to post what you want. The truth is way to much time and energy is being wasted on trying to alert you on how your style ruins your message. The truth is I will no longer respond to what I see as outrageous, off-color and obnoxious comments, someone who would rather cause consternation than make a serious contribution to the issue.

There is no try... only do or do not... Master Yoda

I would much rather hear you talk about wilderness risk management and how to stay out of situations that require you to manage the severe trauma you listed. I think a session where you go over what you do to minimize risk on a high adventure trip would be quite valuable.

Well, first you have to know a little background. Due to a birth defect my son has to cathetrize a stoma every 3-4 hours to drain urine from a surgically constructed bladder and has to sleep with a urinary drainage bag. We were on a cabin campout last winter. The boys were in the two upstiars rooms, the older boys in one (where my son was) and the younger in another. The adults were all downstairs. Well, as it often happens the younger boys were being very rambunctious and noisy and wouldnt settle down. The older boys kept telling the younger ones to be quiet. Well, eventually my son has had enought, he walks over the youner boy side, and flips on the light. There he is, with his catheter bag 1/2 filled raised to eye level and he says "Hey, you guys be quiet, this thing is loaded and I am not afraid to use it. The place went totally silent and stayed that way till morning, then he told me what happened and I laughed for 10 minutes.

Oh, and by the way, dont forget she will always see her daddy as the perfect man. If you show love, she will love, if you show good manners, she will have good manners If you swear, she will swear, if you have no regard for her, she will have no regard for herself either. She will become a mirror of you and your wife (the Aerie of the OGE flock congratulate you)

Our Class designation is NE-IV-139, NE= Northeast Region IV= We are in section 4 of the Northeast Region 139= Number of Class we are (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Sctmom Ditto, A big bump to that and last and not least, YOU GO GIRL!!!

sst3rd Off the subject a bit but regarding rehashing the same old tired skits, I have a simple rule, if we've seen it, we dont do it. For the last 3 years out troop has written new skits for summercamp. Its a fun process the kids can really get into. You will find you have "funny boys" in the troop, use them to make up current topic skits, its a lot of fun (be sure to approve the script) We now return to the schdeuled ranting and venting (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Children come from God to us as a blank slate, they learn by watching us, I can not think of a luckier little girl than to have Mike Long as her model

Even if you take the sexual comments out completely, you have one scout helping himself to another's property and refusing to give it up when requested. In our troop its understood that if you leave a chair it will get used. Its also understood the owner gets to relaim his chair anytime he wants. When you add the sexual comments, it makes it so much worse. How many people heard the older scout admit his part? They may be waiting to see what the troop leadership does, if nothing is done, and someone else reports the incident then the troop leadership becomes tainted by the incident. You cant let this lie, it must be reported and investigated. If the investigation comes to the conclusion some kid was playing mind games, at least it was BSA that concluded that, otherwise the troop is open to all sorts of problems. The father of the young scout may be poised to report to Council, can you take the risk of having your troop presented as tolerating such behavior?

I will try to state my position one more time. I accept that boys drop out for all the reasons Rooster posted. What I am saying is rather than fumble for reasons why you have a 50%(or abouts) drop out rate, why not have a system in place so you know for sure?

I have a challenge for all regular posters, irregular posters as well, but it wont be as easy for you. I would like your opinions on two subjects. You can say anything you like (within the context of forum rules of course)but I ask you answer both questions. 1. Why does Bob White catch by far the most criticism for his opinions and statements? 2. Why is it in over two years of posting on this forum I have hardly, if ever seen any other poster directly asked for advice on a scouting matter?