OldGreyEagle

I apologize for my previous comment, its what I get for letting one of the minor voices in my head take over.

I never thought of Scouting as a tax dodge, sort of makes that duty to country thing ring a bit hollow

Zorn, The system is as good as we the component parts make it. The kid is first class and I am not sure what can be done about that. However, as you alluded to, on the next campout ask him to lash a few things together, have him start a fire or campstove, teach a few knots. In short see if he demonstrates the skills of a first class scout. If he does ok, then all is well. If he cant, now you have real evidence of a problem. Point out the specific skills he lacks to the scoutmaster and other ASM's. "Wonder" aloud how the scout could be first class if he cant do these things. There are many way to make your point. Maybe you cant change this one, but you may be able to prevent a reoccurence. There is an old political cliche and I will paraphase it here "People get the Boy Scout Troop they deserve" If no one will talk to the "mother" no one can complain about her

Ok, so the mother is a force to be reckoned with, an outright witch. Does the kid know his stuff? Not through the BOR process, just from your observaitons. Is he confident, on outings does he do his share and can he light a campstove, make a cooking fire, cook a meal? Can he use a compass, tie his knots, etc. In short is there any evidence that the scout should not be first class. I understand your reservation, I would have one as well if a scout made first class in 6 months. But it is possible, in fact, its possible to make first class in 30 days from joining, a tough stretch, but possible. Just because he has an "overbearing mother" is no reason to assuem the kid cant do whay he is suppsoed to, even though I have to admit I would also be suspicious. BTW, will anybody in the troop talk to the mother before his Eagle BOR?

If the premise is a scout MUST have 10 "camping days" to qualify as an active scout to fulfill the "BE ACTIVE..." requirements for advancement to another rank then there is no source. They are pulling it out of their ears. (insert BobWhite vs Evmori debate over active here)

Zorn, lets say I agree with you, what is the remedy?

I hate to be the only salmon swimming upstream, but here goes: Did the scout show any evidence he knew his stuff? Was the scout confident he had completed the requirements? Outside of the BOR, does the scout show he knows his way around a campsite? If you toss him a rope and ask if he can show Tommy Tenderfoot how to tie a square knot, etc can he? Is it possible that the scout "earned" first class? yes it is, although the mother did nothing to help by being the one who signed the requirements off. And now my bid for the talking out of both sides of my mouth award. BSA has no rule/requirement/policy whatever that "scouter" parents cannot sign off requirements on their sons. Many troops (including mine) have the gentlemen's agreement, OK Sctmom et al, gentleperson's agreement that a parent doesnt sign off tenderfoot to first class requirements or counsel an Eagle required merit badge. But this is done voluntarily. It has not been violated, but if it was, the troop could not contest it as it is within the rules. An overabundance of parental signatures does give one pause however (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

One of the downsides about reading this forum is a person tends to pick up a lot information not known to every scouter. So, our Scoutmaster called to ask if I knew about a new safety program, akin to safe swim defense/safety afloat but dealing with hiking. He said he heard rumors about such a thing and wanted to know if I had heard of it since I am generally up and accurate with my information. So, not as to let him down, does this sound familiar?

So Ed, You said my hypothetical band member would be a member of your troop until rechater time. What if he comes back and says he had a great time in the band, planned on being active as a scout until next fall when he would again be in the band, then what? Does he get dropped ?

Ed, I understand Sctmom's confusion, back on July 22 you posted "...As far as the Scouts who don't have a position, I expect them to be at at least 75% of the Troop meetings and outings. To me, this goes hand in hand with Scout Spirit & being active...." I also thought that was an attendance requirement. Upon closer review I see that you "expect" them to be at 75% of the meetings and activities, not require them. So, that begs the question if a scout is in "the band" and misses meetings and activities during the fall because he is playing at football games, is he dropped from the troop or if he tells you he will be back after band season, will he still be a member of the troop in December? Funny how the same words mean different things to different people.

Does anyone know where I can find clip art of Baden-Powells profile? I think I have seen it before, but I cant find it

I love an Esoteric debate!!! I say 17 months is the quickest time span to Eagle. As Bob has pointed out, you need the thirty days between the physcial tests for tenderfoot and for First Class you need at least three overnight camping trips and 7 other patrol/troop activities (remember Patrol activities dont require an adult) A scout could earn first class in a month, then spend 4 months getting star, 6 to life, 6 to Eagle. So, if he joined at 10 years 6 months, he "COULD" be an Eagle at 11 years and 11 months. (Now, since working with base 12 systems is not my thing I could be off) Eagle by twelve, then he would have 5 years to do .....?

Yaworski is right Nothing wrong with patrol outings, in fact encourage them. Follow the rules and the scouts dont need an adult, the kids might just learn something.

I dont recall the last time I got Columbus day off, but then I have never gotten Martin Luthor King day off, or Casmir Pulaski day, Arbor day or Kwanza either. I do manage to get off at least one weekend a month to camp out with my multi-racial troop where we cook, have activities, sing songs and generally have fun and no one cares who is white, black, asian or south american. Now THAT is holiday!

Well they finally started to talk about what was a ticket item on the second ay, and then were pressuring us to have ticket ideas approved by the end of the third day. I didnt see anything mysterious in the process, at least nothing that could not havebeen explained up front. I think a pre-meeting would be nice, sometime during the first week, just a few hours where they could go over what a "ticketable" item was and have a few examples. Overall it was a very worthwhile experience and with or without knowledge of ticket items I would encourage all non WoodBadge scouters to consider doing it "... and I can Bear no more..."

I never thought of it until this thread, but Columbus Day is a pretty good European Holiday. I mean, this guy gets credit for "Discovering" the "New World", ignoring it was pretty well inhabited at the time. The Christmas Holiday is a combination of many European traditions, the Yule log from England and the Germanic influences as well. Then again, Halloween is a a reflection of old Druid traditions. Most holidays have some religious background and the christianity in the US is definitely Euro-Centrist. I cant recall for sure and you guys in Illinois help me out here. I remember back quite a few years ago when Harold Washington became the first black mayor of Chicago. It was during his adminstration that Martin Luthor King day became a national holiday. A group of Chicago alderman, known as the "Ethnic" (read that as white) alderman wanted a holiday for a white man as well. Well, they went to their history books and came up with Kasmir Pulaski (used to be Crawford, now its Pulaski, only a Chicago native will get that). So now in Illinois there is a state holiday in February honoring Kasmir Pulaski, a noble man who sold his fortune in Poland to come to America to help George Washington at Valley Forge, but some how how he got his own holiday seems tarnished. BTW, did the Society of White Male Engineers ask the ACLU for help? Seems like that would have been fair turnabout.

We indeed did play the Win all you can game. Did I tell you we won at the Jeopardy game? And then during the patrol project presentations there were three other game "shows" the Bears rolled through and won them all. As far Win all you Can, the Bears were smart enought to know it was a lousy game, and it did leave a few in tears and others so red faced and angry they were shaking, Message to irving, Dump Win all you can

"The supply division business is predatory, protective and competitive with other businesses." Are you talking about the catalog and scout shops? With the myriad threads blasting the price and quality of everything from venture long pants to scout shorts, I am hardly sure predatory is a word I would use. The Scout merchandising wing of the organizaiton is hardly a threat to REI, Coleman, Columbia or even Wal-mart with its gear. That being said, I used to work at a not-for-profit hospital. The hospital was in an urban community and was the largest employer. To help pay for a new high school (so the story goes) the school district sued the hospital regarding its not for profit status for a period of 7 years. The judge did find that in 6 of the years the hospital met Pennsylvania's requirements for not for profit status, and one year it didnt. Then the hospital had to pay taxes on that one year. We employees couldnt understand how we could be not for profit, for profit and then not for profit in the matter of a few years. I guess the same thing could be done to the BSA, but all that would prove was sloppy accounting. I maybe overly Pollyannaish, but the goal of Boy Scouts really is for the boys. Maybe some of you are choking as you read that, but I dont think anyone in BSA is in it for the money. With all that was made of Jimmy and Tammy Faye Baker a few years back, and the Enron scandal most recently if some reporter could make a case that the BSA was unwisely spending funds, or the funds were being spent for non "not for profit" items, I am sure it would be headlines on some cable news show somewhere. I have to admit when I read John D's characterization of the legal profession in the A "plug" for safe scouting guide" thread I was a little taken back, but if the arguments presented is the best that may be presented, I may have to back up John D (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Sctmom, You do know the difference between Men and Treasury Bonds? Bonds are guaranteed to mature...

Ok, I never could let a gauntlet lay around unattended. So, is the BSA a business or organization? Just to make things interesting, I ask if you argue that the BSA is a business, please give examples of what IS an organization.

Here is our Patrol's Web page, Caution, be sure your sound card is turned down but not off> http://users.rcn.com/kjmayer/bear/

I understand that attendance at events and meetings is important. I also know of a few tyrannical band directors who demand so much time from the kids that it almost borders on abuse (ok, maybe that was hyperbole). Some athletic coaches are the same. They demand attendance and dont have any consideration for any other activity. In our troop we know at certain times some scouts will be gone for awhile, sports and band has its seasons, but scouting is year round. BUT, and a big but it is, If a scout is in a position of responsibility for rank advancement, he is expected/required to discharge that repsonsibiltiy according to the requirements of the job and advance expectation of the SM. A bando cant be SPL in the fall, a baseball player cant be QM in the spring etc. If the scout has to wait to take a POR to advance because of other activity committments, thats his choice, we will be here when he is available

One point of clarification, was the 40+ bike ride and 50 mile hike ONE outing? or two? Either way, a 50 mile hike is quite an undertaking, especially for 11-13 year old boys and the adults as well. And I am not sure I like the approach "we are a high adventure troop, like it or leave it" but it may work for some. However, an alternative may be to have the gung-ho father and son start a Venture Patrol. They can plan all the high adventure they want, and have the scouts who are interested (and qualify) participate. Another possibility is the family get with your CO and start a Venture Crew focused on High Adventure. They could still be active in the troop, but as a Venture Crew they could draw on youth from the area, not just the troop and do all the extreme stuff they want. (subject to G2SS of course) So, in the perfect world of OGE (oh if that were only possible) the Gung Ho family gets to do what they want in the context of the BSA program and Mr Nice Guy gets to be Scoutmaster. Of course the boy needs to learn what the term obedience means as well, but that is material for another thread.

Welcome, Just a point of clarification, are you talking of chronological or intellectual age?

I suppose you could campout too much, and I would love to be a member of that troop as well as a lot of other scouts (and scouters) 32 nights a year comes to 2.66 a month which means at least one weekend trip a month with summercamp ? Sounds alright to me, do you want to increase that number?