OldGreyEagle

Interesting reading, so many questions and observaitons Of the people who actually filed the suit, two are religious leaders and one is an Eagle Scout. So, Merlyn, if the suit wins, and Governmental Units have to drop chartering BSA units, then you will have to give thanks to memebers of organized religion for helping you out and one Boy Scout for his help as well. Do you see any irony there? From my reading, and I am no lawyer, it seems the point of the suit is the taxpayers dont want their money supporting Boy Scouts. An open question, how much money does a Chartering Organization HAVE to spend on its unit? From my reading of this forum some of us have great relationships with CO's, others hardly even know who the COR is. If the Commanding Officier of the Base signs the Charter after work, and on his/her own time and appoints/approves adult leaders on his/her own time And the troop furnishes all registration fees from its own treasury, and the base provides meeting space as it does the Christian Bible study Group, the Jewish Defense League, the Muslims for Peace, the Atheist Athletic League and Wicaans for a Cleaner World how much money is the base spending supporting the scouts? Oh, and like I said Bob I am no lawyer, I missed the fact this one was already settled. But I think my other point is still valid, how much money does a Chartering Organizaiton spend on a troop?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

this is what I found on the ACLU site http://archive.aclu.org/news/1999/n041499d.html(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

One of the things I like to emphasize is that patrol flags dont have to be patrol flags, they can be patrol standards. At the National Jamboree my son was in the Golden Eagle Patrol. He took a 21 incg long Eagle, the kind you see over door ways, painted it a high gloss gold metallic, used full round "rope" trim, also gold and hung the Eagle from it with silver chains in the Roman tradition, Hanging underneath the Eagle was a frame with his patrols information. Currently he is in the Pyro patrol, their patrol yell is More Wood!!! More Wood !!! Their patrol standard is a six foot seciton of PVC painted black that a novelty torch (has a orange light, a fan and linen strips) that when turned on does a pretty good job of looking like a lit torch. Certainly got the scouts attention. They tuen it on when announcing the Patrol report.

Just for the heck of it, Rooster can you define the difference between "Those kinds of Religion" and what you would consider a "real religion"?

You know, if I was a Hindu Scouter, I think I would be a little unsettled right now. There are at least a few million people who take Vishnu seriously. And Native Americans may resent the Great Spirit of the Plains thing. Other than that, I agree with you NJ(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

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Like I said, follow the 11 points of leadership discussed at JLTS. You say your guys know the stuff by heart, that they are bored with the presentation and you want to bring it up to the next level. I have a suggestion. Outline the 11 points, and then open it up to the boys, ask them to point out specific troop events where they used one of the 11 points. Ask them to identify a troop event where the 11 points were not used as well as they might. Have them talk about what it would take to make the 11 points as ingrained in the troop as reciting the Scout law and wearing the uniform. Let them see the connection between what is taught on PLC training week ends and how it is to be used during a meeting or event. Start now talking about these issues and have your own list to pique discussion if they dont have their own topics you can get it rolling. Have them design a troop activity that will provide a reason to use the points. See if you can get them to add these points to every event. Don't make it different, that sends the message what we told you last year didnt work, so we are trying this. Reinforce what they have seen and stick with it. Just an idea(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I dont think you can go wrong by looking at the 11 points of leadership the regular JLTC teaches and introduce these concepts to the group. It may not be the actual thing, but at least it introduces them to terms they will hear later when they go to JLTC and revive memories of those who have been

For the record I dont see any reason why a woman cant hold the same position in a troop or higher level position if she is trained, can get the job done, etc. In other words, I dont see a problem judging people on their own merits, regardless of sex, after all, we are all just people

Bob and Ed, What Merlyn is talking about is whether or not its constitutional for Governmental units to Charter BSA units. He does not dispute our right to have joining requirements, or to discriminate against Atheists as a private organizaiton. He does have a problem when govermental units charter units. If a Public School charters a BSA unit, it must by the Charter Agreement only approve leaders who meet the qualifications BSA dictates. In this case, it has to appoint leaders who will discriminate against Atheists, which as a Governmental unit is is by law prohibited to do. The BSA unit, sponsored by a govermental agency which is prohibited by law to discriminate against Atheists, will discriminate against Atheists. Is that the gist merlyn?

FOr Annalisa

Annalisa, I think the "Moms are not allowed" and "Coed Scouting in the USA" threads should get you started, and I have no idea how this thread will go, but this is the place for input(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

For Annalisa

The most important word of the scout law to me is "IS" (prominent politicians not withstanding) "Is", a form of the verb "to be" denotes the present time. A Scout "IS" trustworhty... "Is" means the scout will be these things now, not tomorrow, not at the campout next month, but now, today and tomorrow and the rest of time. "Is" means the scout does not have a preliminary "warm up" period, you are either trustworthy or you arent. You cant just be trustworthy 16 hours a day and take time off. Its all or none. You aren't practicing,you are not trying, you aren't looking forward to the day when you will be, you "is" or you ain't I beleive it was Master Yoda who said "there is no try, only do or do not" A scout either follows the scout law all the time, or he is just a guy in a uniform (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Actually I would not be surprised to have non-whites working to stop government support of a whites only youth group. I wouldn't, however, expect to have them posting messages on a forum where most of the readers have no interest at all in chaging their view. I would expect to see them writing letters to governmental officials, picketing the offending group, joining with like minded people to bring this issue to the forefront of public opinion. I would expect them to put time and energy into working with people who can effect change rather than posting to a group who are not going to change. And I guess thats the crux of my bewilderment, this forum is none of that. But, of course you can post here, but I still dont understand why

Merlyn, While I don't dispute your right to post on any forum you wish, I have to add myself to the list of people who wonder why you post here. You are an Atheist, that is your right under the Constitution, I acknowledge no amount of persuasion, argument, logic, ect. will change your mind. The people against which you argue are Theists. And no amount of persuasion, argument, logic, ect. will change our minds. What is it you seek to accomplish? If its your opinion that governmental units can't charter Scouting Units, OK message heard. Obviously that opinion is not shared by many others who post here as well. We will find out who is wrong/right when the class action suit is decided. Some how I dont think my thoughts or yours, or whomever else who expresses an opinion here will influence the decision. Whenever a religious issue is brought here, I know you will be posting here, as is your right. At times this forum can be arrogant, aggressive and downright nasty, and the rest of my fellow posters are not always "saints" either. Why not open a dialogue, non-confrontational. I would like to know more about Atheists. Were you raised that way, did you convert from some other belief system, why do you feel the way you do. As a Roman Catholic I know not everyone on this board beleives the same things I do, I accept they dont have to. I would like to be able to get an Atheist's opinion on different topics, but at present that seems at the very least difficult. So, what I am asking is can we discuss Theism and the lack thereof without rancor?

I dont know why camo has to equal military, where I live Camo equals hunting.

I know naught of Mr Schmidt and I dont know exactly what he said, but sometimes people say things they dont mean, or wouldnt if they had had time to think about it. Take a look at the string of apologies offered on this forum. I remember a presidential candidate (Gerald Ford, and Eagle Scout as well) who in a debate with Jimmy Carter said that Poland was not under communist control. If I remember right, the USSR was full of vim and vigor at the time and Poland was most definitely under Communist control. Yet I wouldnt say all republicans are geo-politically challeneged I remember Alexander Haig, Chief of Staff to Ronald Reagan when Reagon was shot. He most clearly and definitively said he was in charge, completely ignoring the Vice-Presidents stake in the whole deal. Yet I wouldnt say all republicans are constitutionally challenged. I remember President Bill Clinton saying I did not have sex with that woman. Yet I dont beleive all democratrs are congenital liars, just as I remember #41 Bush saying "read my lips, no new taxes" and taxes were raised. I dont beleive its correct to broadly brush everyone in a group with one persons comment, particularly when said in an emotional context.

I find it interesting that with all the comments on "hate", the only post that applies that term to another human is a defender of the atheist. Merlyn When I read that quote about the atheist and the wallet I shuddered, thinking, well that didn't do anybody any good. I thought about posting a disclaimer that not all scouters think that way, at least I dont, but then I thought the comment was so far over the top, a disclaimer was not necessary, I was wrong. I apologize for not responding sooner. I understand you dont think public money should be spent to support the discriminatory polcies of the BSA. I dont know how many scouters you actually know, but from reading the postings on this forum you will find adults of all ages, from all over the country who participate in the BSA. We come from all demographics (as far as I can discern) and creeds (no, we are not all Christians and BSA doesnt teach the values of the bible). A common thread we all do have is voluntering our time to take "the kids" camping, hiking, fishing, white water rafting, etc. We take our scouts to Philmont, The Boundary Waters and Sea Base, we take them along the Applachian Trail, we show them the outdoors and try to teach leadership and self-confidence. Do you really think this is all a conspiracy to teach discrmination?

Merl, Merl, Merl, you are one persistent guy. Actually I was quite surprised this topic went on as long as it did without you making a post. I know you have commented on the ACLU lawsuit to strip all "governmental" units of their Boy Scout Charters, whether they be Public Schools, Military Bases, or whatever before. Can you give us an update on the proceedings? And when a decision is likely? I know you were talking about this issue at least two years ago, why would such a clear cut issue take so long? And if you answered this before, I missed it, Why does the US Military employ Chaplains, I would think salaries for Chaplains would be a violation of CHurch and State separation.

For my son's Eagle, I recited "Good Riddance" by Greenday with a few editorial changes, by the comments I got from the scouts, it went over well. Another turning point, a fork stuck in the road Time grabs you by the wrist, directs you where to go So make the best of this test and don't ask why It's not a question, but a lesson learned in time It's something unpredictable, but in the end is right I hope you had the time of your life So take the photographs and still-frames in your mind Hang it on a shelf of good health and good time Tattoos of memories and dead skin on the trial For what it's worth, it was worth all the while It's something unpredictable, but in the end is right I hope you HAVE the time of your life It's something unpredictable, but in the end is right I hope you had the time of your life I hope you HAVE the time of your life (for those of you who dont know which song we are talking about)

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Gee, I wonder how many of us would be sympathetic towards an "expert witness" who would "gloss over" the "...tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth..." of the swearing in in a court of law. Hey Rooster, tell you what, lets let this guy still be in scouts if when we recite the ten commandments, we both get one we can ignore (pick one, any one)I mean 9 out 10 is far better than any baseball player I know. Better yet, following this line of thinking, I will continue to say reverent, I will just ignore the trustworhty part, I mean, thats still 11/12's of being a scout. When saying the pledge of Allegiance, can I say "...under God..." and work to limit personal freedoms because I dont beleive in the the "...liberty and justice for all..." part?

Perhaps the "new" Woodbadge is not the most intellectually challenging program that could have been offered. It may not be all things to all people, then again, few things are. When I took my "new" WoodBdage class, I might not have been presented with skills I hadn't already seen through graduate school and multiple Training seminars, but just to be in the same room, sharing the experience with 50 other adult scouters, all of whom having the same mindset, sharing the same values as I was as rewarding as anything I have ever done(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)