OldGreyEagle

Bob, Just as a note off topic, how are such solicitation for comments made known? Such as the ideas for JLT? I would have liked to have made some, obviously others on this thread would have made excellent suggestions as well. I understand it may be too late as far as JLT goes, but what about other topics where input from the filed is desired, how do/should we in the field find out our suggestins are wanted?

Rooster, I meant no respect to Cal Ripken, I only mean to point out role models, especially those we know only from the press. will always be suspect. There was a time when Jesse Jackson and Michael Jordan would have been role models, no longer. I think its a mistake to look anyone in public life and say I want to be like him/her. As I understand it, only one man was perfect (though some may dispute that) and its his life we should emulate

I know this may be considererd treason in the state of Maryland, and I assume the role of devil's advocate: For what should Cal Ripken Jr be praised? For playing at less than 100% of his physical skills when a competent replacement was availible? For being in a slump (he had a few) and insisting to be in the order when his doing so was a detriment to the team? For insisting on separate hotel accomodaitons when "the Streak" got down to the wire and removing himself from his team mates? I make no argument that the record Cal Ripken Jr set is probably untouchable, and it was a great mental and physical feat, but ol'Cal didnt always have him teammates in mind when he was chasing Lou. He has much to admire in his charactor, he also has a few foibles, then again dont we all. Rooster, forgive me, but I had to tell it as I see it

Rooster, you and I will have to disagree on this one. A sports figure is just that, a sports figure. Whether he is the nasty SOB in the persona of Ty Cobb, or the drunken, womanizing Babe Ruth, or the hard drinking late night partying Mickey Mantle they all were professionals being paid to do their job. Extracurricular activities notwithstanding. A Boy Scout leader however, is much different. We hold ourselves to be role models, that is our job, and we are paid accordingly. And we are role models full time (and least someone thinks my last thought wa a cheap shot, we are paid, in the number of Engineering students in college, in the number of scouts who remember at odd times what we have said and change a behavior, we can have riches far beyond any material wealth because of our roles)

I think you can appreciate the talents and accomplishments of a person while not approving of personal habits. Paul Guaguin comes to mind of a brilliant artist with less than admirable faimliy values. St. Augustine is another who comes to mind in not being a terrific role model. And despite all that is done in Scouts regarding the gay issue, when a patrol is awarded the blue ribbon for placing first in the Klondike Derby and they break into a spontaneous rendition of "We are the Champions" I dont think anyones sexual orientation is likeley to be changed. I may not think David Crosby's life is worth emulating, but "Teach the Children Well" when read as a poem is as good a Court of Honor closing as I know. I beleive Charles Barkely is right when he says "I am not a role model". When we look outside our community for role models, we have to fail, for what are we saying about ourselves and our community? In countless surveys concerning the most "influential people in my life" students routinley rank parents in the top 5. Oh, and in Moulin Rouge, the use of "Your Song" is a beautiful thread that ties the movie together regardless of who wrote it. Of course, Moulin Rouge itself is a rip-off of Camille which is a story of questionable ethics written by the illegitimate son of Alexander Dumas so maybe I shouldn't have read either it or the Three Musketeers. Perhaps we should ban "All for One and One for All" from all scouting events as well. Mark Twain was known to like hard liquor and often spoke in a less than gentlemanly manor. David Thoreau was a non-repetent reprobate who refused to pay his taxes. Ben Franklin's lust for life may have altered the gene pool of more than a few french noble families. I could go into the author of Frankenstein, Mary Shelley, wife of Percy Bythe Shelley and their friend Lord Byron, but that's way to easy. My conclusion? Admire the work, not the whole person.

Never Could resist a challenege: I would like to see the BSA re-do the week long JLTC curriculum to match the new Woodbadge. I am not saying it should be the same, it should use the same principles and use the same vocabulary. The 11 points of Leadership is great, but a graduate of JLTC dosesnt know what a recent Woodbadger is talking about when the Scouter talks about developing a High Performance Team, and the Scouter may not be familiar with the JLTC 11 leadership principles. All BSA training should use the same vocabulary, presented with age appropriate methods/terms. Now, if I remember right, Bob White will reposnd that this is happening, and I hope it will be, I am just looking for confirmation. If not, its a goal worth pursuing. Next, on the topic of JLTC, at the troop level I think the BSA publishes a pretty good 1 day troop JLT training program. I would like to see a second and third version as well. If troop training is held every 6 months, and a new patrol leader attends, and attends as troop guide six months later and then every six months thereafter advances on to ASPL, SPL, etc. a little variation would be nice. What do you all think ?

You Rang??? Anyway, see anything can happen anywhere. I am on a business trip and am writing this from Lancaster PA. Actually i was more concerned about the NFC championship game where a group of people in Philadelphia Eagle uniforms were pretending to be football players. This is not meant to be an excuse but the father said they were driven to desparate measures, and in those desparate times they thought up of a scam to make money, and what did they pick? A house to house solicitation scheme, and just who did they pick to fraudulently represent? A group which is known to be bigoted and prejudiced? A group that is out of step with the current way of thinking? A group responsible for the humiliation of others and all the BSA has been accused of? I take comfort, that when these people wanted to get as much money as they could, they went with scouting, not little league, not band, not school, but Boy Scouts, (ok Cubs). In a way, I see this as proof that despite all the bickering we do here, the program is in great shape and is the model of a youth program. As my mother used to say, "Imatation is the most sinecere form of flattery" and this is the best back-handed example of it(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Just as long as you dont become another brick in the wall you will do fine

Laura, remember, if a scout is verifiably handicaped alternative advancement requirements may be substituted. Check with your Advancement Chair or District Advancement Chair.

The way I read it, all the "saved" people were from the Executive branch of the government. Maybe the guidelines should be rewritten to include the speaker of the house and the minority leader as well as the two highest ranking senators, one democrat and one republican as well the "Supremes" (look I could have said SCOTUS but this has more ring to it) If this was done, the surviving government would have remnants of all three branches. I think thats what should happen.

Welcome Back Bob "I find the best method is to have an agenda and stick to it" If I know nothing else, this group sticks to their agenda...

Sung with respect: "Welcome back, I hope your back and if you are I want to shout, Welcome back, to that same old place that you laughed about. "Well, the names have mostly changed since you hung around, but the same debates have remained and they keep going around (Gay, Atheism, Camo, whats proper to wear on a Class A, is there a Class A anyway? ) Who'd have thought they'd lead ya back here where we need ya? "Yeah, we tease him a lot, cuz we've got him on the spot. Welcome back

This gives an address, might find a phone number or E-MAil link as well http://www.scouting.org/index.html

le Voyageur, Whatever happens, dont leave Boy Scouts, you have such a wealth of knowledge, I would despair if we lost it

a troop with its own rifles, kayaks and canoes and rifles....??? I think our troop has just been playing scouts instead of being scouts! Our troop inventory consists of a few Chuckboxes, an assortment of pans, lanterns, and pop-ups and a couple of tents. Our best asset is the new shelves just constructed in the new church basement to store them all. (thats just my opinion, after all they are a ticket item for my WoodBadge) What other equipment do troops own? I would like to show this thread to the PLC

I know Bob White, I have chatted with Bob White and I have traded E-Mails with Bob White, I respect Bob White, but I tell you, I am no Bob White and invite Scouter-Terry or whomever to verify I am not Bob White. And Rooster, I think KWC misunderstood your statement, you don't think Bob White and I are the same person, do you? When I made the comment So, Rooster, Congrats, you have just been accused of morphing into Bob White, how does that make you feel? On this thread on Jan 10, 2003 I was alluding to a point I was trying to make a few months past that Bob's passion for the BSA and your passion for your faith were pretty much on the same level. You (Rooster) would berate Bob for his vigorous defense of the BSA with the same vigor you show on the Gay and related issues. I didnt mean anything coy by it. Just remembering past posts where Bob caught it because he defended a BSA position and now it was you in the same spot. And I dont hold KWC responsible for his inference, anyone who can confuse Lily Tomlin, Gilda Radner, Emily Litella, and Rosanne Rosanne Adann could have easily misunderstood your passage. Post Script: When I first read the OGE=Bob White thing I was writing a response. Reality (my job) kept interrupting me and by the time I posted my reponse, a whole bunch of other posts came in. Thank-you Rooster for knowing what I meant. (I think you knew what I meant) Anyway, double posting has occurred in the past the most celebrated I know of was that Yaworski and Zorn packte turned out to be the same person.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Just a thought, why dont we embrace camo to the point the Paramilitary groups drop it because they dont want to look like Boy Scouts??? I can dream cant i?

whats my name? Eagle, OldGrey...Eagle Ok, the night hike is an idea and I have just the route, along the Appalachian Trail that we have hiked a bunch, though always in the daylight. Now A few more ideas like that and I will have what I am looking for. Now, for your excellent night hike idea, I wont berate you for your total disregard of the Leave No Trace principles, I figure I can leave that up to others

I guess I phrased myself wrong (imagine that!) What I am looking for is high adventure that doesnt cost a whole bunch, or am I the one tilting at windmills. We have climbing gyms in the area, but a steady diet of them will cause boredom and an empty wallet. Plus, not everyone wants to climb or rappel. Whitewater Rafting, while a thrill is more expensive than climbing. I am looking for what other troops do to keep high adventure alive without bankrupting the parents, or are these mutually exclusive aims?

So color me dense... I may lack the big picture, but I have been involved in our troop and district for 6 years now. I have not seen a shift to the right, or republicanism, in our area. ASM1 and le Voyageur what do you point to to make your comments? Now, I have to admit as a Roman Catholic with roughtly 13 years of formal Catholic Education, I would have a difficult time spotting a religious focus change in favor of Christians, but I cant say I have seen a political change. And I would say I am an independent, I voted for Nixon once, for Jimmy Carter, John Anderson, Ronald Reagan once, Bill Clinton once and for GW once (so far). I am not saying the BSA hasnt gone the way that is claimed, I want to know why you think so

Its interesting to note that the few TV comercials I have seen on Boy Scouts show them Outdoor Rock Climbing. Almost all the Venture Literature have a rock climbing picture. At this years University of Scouting, "Climb on Safely" will be persented (required for in or outdoor climbing)to our council for the first time. And then by an invidual devoid of climing skill or ability. Our troop could be the exception, how many troops actually outdoor rock climb and rappel and not use comercial enterprises?

This is an offshoot from a few threads, how to get the scouts to wear the uniform with pride and a few others. I asked my son what would improve Scouting's Image, and he immediatley said let us do all the things on the banned list, ride motocross cycles, 4 wheelers, jet skis, etc. He sees all the rules we have to follow as making the program weak, I see the rules as necessary for safety and for liability protection for the leaders. He looks at things from a teens view, me as an adult. So, Can the two attitudes merge? What can adults do to add a measure of "extreme" to the program without costing me my house?

I have no problem with scouts using military equipment appropriate for the activity. I have no problem with scouts wearing camo on an activity, its the most likely type of clothing to go on sale and is usually well made. Our scoutmaster, at a Committee meeting proposed the wearing of Camo be banned in the troop in any fashion. I told him that idea was "stupid", I then apologized for my word usage, but "stupid" was the one word I could use out of all the ones floating around in my head. There is a caveat however, Some scouts, when wearing Camo or using military equipment, get too "into" the military look and start to behave like they think they really are military and start to act differently. They have more bravado, more daring, do things they normally wouldnt. They adopt a different attitude. If you use the gear as gear fine, if you get a group who wants to play "dress-up" look out

If its during downtime on a campout, then its allowed. If we think there is too much cardplaying going on, then its brought to the PLC to add more content to the program. Most playing is done before meals while the cooks are cooking and the meal is pending. Ed and Slont, why would you ban Magic and Pokemon but allow Hearts and regular cards?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I think I understand the objection to making the boys suffer for a BSA action. But I have to wonder how far should it go? COMPLETELY HYPOTHETICAL SITUATION************** Let's say (only say) that the National Board of the Lions Clubs, Moose, Eagles, Rotary (or any other organization that charters a BSA unit) decides for whatever reason that it will adopt a policy of non-discrimination towards sexual orientation. The policy is written in such a manner that the units chartered either have to accept gay leaders or find a new charter organization. If the BSA holds firm, it could result in a major disruption in many a boys scouting career. Maybe most of the units would find new sponsors, but some wouldn't. Would the BSA be crossing the line with this attitude? Ok,then, lets say the BSA replies with a "hey, thats not the way the program is written, but if you want to be responsible for the liabilities, fine with us", the boys of those units are not effected, the units still exist, but the overall rules and philosophy of the organization are changed and how many other chartering organizations would disband its units in response? Either way, boys are effected, and they shouldnt be, but how do you spare them? (The above exaample is Hypothetical, I apologize in advance to any member of any oranization mentioned, I do not mean to insult, only give a possible situation)