OldGreyEagle

Oak Tree, I looked at the links, I ddn't see where a unit was encouraged to sign off requirements for skills that were not demonstrated. The unit should have a scheduled program that allows a scout to reach first class in a year IF he avails himself of the opportunity, if he doesn't avail himself, he doesnt make it. OK, what does that mean? One of the requirements to get to First Class is to talk to a civic leader. It means the Troop schedules such a meeting, or it makes sure that the scout knows how to schedule such a meeting. If the meeting is held at a troop meeting and the scout dosent make it, I see no encouragement for the unit to sign the boy off if he is not present. Who are those presuring for First Class in a year? and if we can't stand up to them and say no, the youth dont have the skills or have not completed the requirments what sort of role models are we? Especially to the boys who do show up and do have the skills?

So the 128,000 dollar question (adjusted for inflation) is, are the requirements too easy or are adults to lenient in accepting work done by the scouts? I know we have a few members here entrenched in the ivy covered walls of Academia. Some would even say the Ivory Towers of Academia but I digress. Can you Academicians tell me what is the current trend in grading? What does an A mean today versus the year 2000, vs 1990 vs 1980 vs 1970? Is it a systems issue or operator error?

Yes, I do beleive we should advance kids as fast as we can, as soon as they demonstrate they know the requirements they get signed off. I don't know about you, but I have heard about some troops/adult leaders who put arbitrary stumbling blocks or outright built in delays to advancement. If the kid knows his stuff he advances, regardless of time frames except where its required. If he doenst know his stuff, he doesnt advance, regardless of time frames. The time frames are meaningless, its having the skill that is the issue If kids don't attend meetings and/or outings they dont advance, this isnt that hard, is it?

So, what we are saying is thats to deliver a program the kids will embrace it seldom is a one man show, one could say "It takes a village"

Well, many want boy scouts camping in the back country in the worst way possible and then get angry when they get their wish... How do you control a national organization of volunteers? Many of us told Engineer61 in no uncertain terms that parent are not relegated to the sidelines and then someone comments the unit they serve takes care of an issue by not allowing parents to come on trips. So, we are telling someone the National Rules we are supposed to follow while another is blithley ignoring them. Is this unit terrible rotten and awful? I don't know, I assume their "rule" is the result of experience and is the way they decided on the local level to handle an issue. Unless we were there, we don't know if it was right or wrong We want scouters to deliver the program, and delilver it right and just how we define right is the issue. The problem is, none of what BD describes is in any way shape or form acceptable

Ouch there BD, all bad things, all against the Oath and Law and even the Outdoor Code. I know its popular to say that 3/4's of Scouting is outing, but outing without being scoutlike is what gets us in trouble, Maybe the phrase should be 3/4's of scouting is outing and your a scout 100% of the time? Naw, too clumsy I am sure we have some wits who are much more clever than I

So there is no link to the BSA particulars about First Class First Year First CLass Emphasis, our opinions are based on what we think and what we hear and we have nothing official to hang our hats on? Should it take a year to learn to tie the 6 basic knots? How long has the bowline been required? That an Eagle cannot tie a bowline is not because he got First Class in a Year, its because he never saw fit to actually learn it or had the chance to use it. That is not National's fault, or a fault with FCFY its a unit thing. We jumped on Basement Deweller when he wanted rules for Boy Scouts in the Back country because what good is a rule if no one follows the ones we have. First CLass First Year is only worth as much as we adult unit leaders make it. If you want to kill it because its too confusing, I may actually agree with you. But its the local units that sign off requirments, not National

Who mentioned anything about taking 40 boys into backcountry? I must have missed that

Before we get much further, does somebody have a link to the BSA publications that describe First Class First Year? I always thought, and the way it was explained to me, was that the Troop should have a program that an Active scout (hate the word active dontcha know) could attain the rank of first class scout IF he availed himself of the opportunities. It means making meetings, going on events, camping, being ready and willing to learn skills and to teach and do those skills. I have never seen any encouragement in any BSA publication that requirements be glossed over or sloughed off or anything to allow the scout to get to be first class in a year. Now, I am not saying it doesnt exist, I just have not seen it. So, rather than rail agianst a myth of scouting I would like to see the documentation. BTW, I would like to pledge that I would never allow a scout to pass a requirment just because he "wants" to, he either has the skill or he doesnt pass. Anyone want to join me with that?

Apparently despite our arguments to Enginner61 that parents are not relegated to the sidelines, they are

Thats right Buffalo, he who has a tates is lost (how long did you think i could last anyway?)

What if Advancement was not emphasized? Perhaps a Troop would have an emphasis on High Adventure, being Outdoors oriented and most of the units efforts were to learn outdoor and high adventure skills... perhaps that would have a religious bent, and emphasize a scout is reverent and concentrate their efforts along those lines, or maybe even that a scout is physically strong and make Sports an emphasis. or a Hobby .. wait, we already have this program and OMG Its Coed!

I am really torn, at the 2001 Jamboree, one of the enduring memories I have is the octet (read it 8) staffers on motorized wheelchairs doing "precision drafting" that would make the fast and furious crowd envious. And to think they can't be at the Summit, well yes, its a loss. To the 50-100 pound overweight guys, well I shed a lighter tear, mostly because I just lost 60 pounds because I want to go the Jamboree and if I can do it, so can you. Check the Scouter Forum Facebook page for pics We want the youth to take being fit to heart, how can we when we are not?

Just make sure, whatever you do, Do not buy Tates brand compasses...

check https://summit.scouting.org/en/Documents/35005035-The-Bechtel-Summit-Phase-1-Plan-In-Progress.pdf the merit badge midway is prominently marked I will be on staff, or at least I have been accepted to be on staff in the Buckskin Games area and am planning on it. The first time in the new location, it could be an unmitagated diaster or it could be wonderful... that's the intrigue but with a staff of volunteers willing to work, nothing really awful will happen. Just notes on how to do it better next time

When I was asked to move, I would have asked who they were, where are you from, I am a scout leader to, who is your CO, all nicely and very friendly. Thats how I would find out and then report them. OK, report sounds very formal and as far as we know they could be 3 well regarded silver beavers from the council and you will be dismised as a crackpot, then again perhaps they have a history of bullying and your story is the straw breaking the camel's back, that pushes those chucklheads out. All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing (see Penn State) Most likley I would have moved as I wouldnt want to be around a bunch of kids I dont know as it is Limiting participation? If the troop I serve wanted to backpack a few miles and 15 kids want to come, I am not sure we have the adults to split the group and provide adequate transportation let alone backpacking skill. Talk about parents relegated to the sidelines, not due to troop policy but because they simply cant do the activity. FOllowind the Scout Oath and Law are the Rules. If a troop doesnt follow them, no other set of Guidelines Rules Ethics etc will alter their behavior

Personally I am still working on Dennis99ss reading the ceremonies... as a parent doing research on the OA after his son was elected to be an Ordeal Candidate And we have a passionate thread on whether or not parents can attend OA ceremonies? The OA needs an Internet suveillance team to find and eliminate any mention of their protected information. And if they don't, they need to let parents watch the ceremonies

So, the anticipated direction the Jamboree is going is a good thing, right?

I love rules, who is going to enforce the new rules?

The Council I serve is charging the same for 2013 as it did for 2010, I think thats a good thing. I still think its too high but then no body asked me either

I always thought that when a scout got signed off on a skill it meant he had the skill. If he knows how to tie a bowline, and we as the adults say he can tie a bowline then he can tie a bowline. No, Ughh I forgot that one auuhhhhh Then again, it is incumbent on the unit to assue the scout has ample opportunity to use that skill. If he doesnt use it, he loses it so its never once and done

Having read a few other responses, I do think I have an addition. Every year we "Audition" for bridging Webelos. The parents come and visit a troop meeting. We talk to the adults and tell them how the troop is structured. We introduce ourseleves and talk about our experience. We invite them on a Campout, we know the parents are going to more than one troop, we want them too. We want them to pick the troop they feel most comfortable with. I would rather have a den go to another troop because they "Like" the scoutmaster more than ours then drop scouting alltogether, I would hope that when they allow their son to join the troop I serve, they did so because they trust the adults. I am not sure running around asking if they trust us a lot would do anything but raise a question

Sorry Engineer, I am confused when you say "Each of your troops have potentially dozens of parents who are relegated to the sidelines for every outing, summer camp and activity that your troop does." The Guide to Safe Scouting says "...The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders." http://www.scouting.org/scoutsource/HealthandSafety/GSS/gss01.aspx#a How does that relegate any parent/guardian to the sidelins? As far as do the parents trust us? No, I have never asked, then again every outing we go on, from WhiteWater Rafting to backpacking to the local Camporee is a referendum on the parent's trust of the troop's adults. If they didnt trust us, why in the world would they allow their kids to come with us?(This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)

McQueary may be an Eagle, but he is IS an athelete and I thought you had expounded on the virtures of Athletics over Scouting in developing charactor or am I wrong about your love of sports over anything scouting?

Lets attempt to get this right The Graduate Assistant was 28 years old at the time he saw the incident. Not 20, not 21, not a fresh faced college graduate who was new to the ways of the world. He testified he at first heard rhythmic slapping he associated with sexual activity, this was not his first time at the rodeo, He was 28, and Mike McQueary saw what was going on and instead of breaking it up and rescuing the child, chose to leave the scene of the rape, call his daddy and then tell Coach Paterno the next day what he saw. That he never called 911 when he realized what was going on is astounding to me. He did what he was supposed to do? He isnt expected to do more? This is acceptable behavior? What, run away and call daddy? He couldnt call 911, yell rape or physically stop the rape? He did ok? Eveyone and I mean everyone's behavior in this situation was abysmal, but the "kid" eyewitness was no kid and its a dis service to 20-21 year old everywhere to lump McQueary's actions in with them This is about college students who want to be Assistant Scoutmasters, not a 28 year old man who wouldn't know a moral compass if a scout handed it to him. As if being older is a hedge against abuse, Jerry Sandusky proved that doesnt work (This message has been edited by oldgreyeagle)