OldGreyEagle

Anybody going to Hawk Mountain Camp School? I have some questions for you

Now that we have the issue of can the scoutmaster prevent the boy from getting Eagle after all the requirements have been met (excepting the Scoutmaster Conference, unless that was held and this is when the boy was told he wouldnt be approved for Eagle)settled, I beleive the initial post also asked for what could be done. I would encourage the boy to: 1. Contact the Scoutmaster, make an appointment and discuss why the scoutmaster does not want to approve the boy for Eagle. The scout should take notes of what was said. Failing approval the next step is: 2. Contact the Troop Advancement Chair, discuss the situation and determine of the Advancement Chair will be able to help. Again, notes should be taken of the conversation. Failing resolution the next step is 3. Contact the Troop Commitee Chair, again, discuss the situation and the results of the previous three meetings. (Making notes of course) Failing resolution the next step is 4. Contact the District Advancement Chair and present the issue, if not resolved 5. Appeal to the Council Advancement Committee. Actually, I dont think you will have to get the issue out of the troop, or definitely it will stop (I hope) at the District level. On the other hand, its nice to see the spirit of Demogogery still burns bright PS. Note I said I would encourage the BOY, not parent/guardian unless absolutely necessary to do the contacting and discussing. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Not that I would advocate NOT being in full uniform, but a pair of wheat pants (or actual khacki khackis/Dockers) and the boy scout shirt doesnt look bad at all. A much better alternative to blue jeans although the uniform pants are always a better choice(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Last I heard, about 5% of all scouts who join make Eagle. If I am wrong, doubtlessly I will be corrected. But how do we look at this, as a 5 percent success rate or a 95 percent failure rate? If the rate doubled to 10 percent, that would be a 90 percent failure rate. Or do we look at the BSA program in total. Not with Eagle as the desired outcome, but as the desired outcome the idea so well articulated in the BSA Mission statement: "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." The Eagle Scout rank is what it is today because of the decades spent developing it as a quality accomplishment. But again, Eagle is not the long term goal of the BSA. For every non-Eagle former scout who has a cherished memory of summer camp, of a particular hike, of a merit badge that became a career, of an adult leader who made a difference in the scouts life, for all those who found a place in scouting, who loved it and did not become Eagle, I am not sure that was a failure of the program or the boy

Ya good ol'boys talk back to the Scoutmaster, 30 days in the box Ya talk back to the Senior Patrol Leader, 30 days in the box Ya talk back to your patrol leader, 30 days in the box (loved strother martin and the man with no eyes)

Ok, so I almost choked on my freedom fries while I was reading that last round of responses. i have to teach how to tie a freedom bowline to my Pioneering merit badge class. The Red wool floopy thingies were the last cool bit of headwear the BSA had. I wouldnt mind if they brought back the campiagn hats though, they were spiffy. Then again with the dork-o-rama baseball hat we have now, anything looks better

Loved the red beret, would be great to have it back, Guardian Angels not withstanding

WELCOME BACK ROOSTER!!!

When did the Sheepshank (the bane of Lemuel Siddons) become a basic knot? The expression "use it or lose it" really fits here. The more they are used, the less they aer forgotten

As both a Bear fan, and a Bear I take exception to Bob Whites comment about the Bears, unfortunately, as with much of Bob White's comments, it dead on, but I still take exception to it

As both a Bear fan, and a Bear I take exception to Bob Whites comment about the Bears, unfortunately, as with much of Bob White's comments, it dead on, but I still take exception to it

Dan, I unserstand what you are saying. Remember, those scouts for whom Scouting is their number one priority will advance faster than those dont have scouts as their number one priority. My son, for whom scouting was his priority made Eagle at 16 and will be receiving his second bronze palm just as he turns 18. We have another scout in the troop who will be turning 18 this month and will/should pass his Eagle Board of Review this month as well. He wont be getting any palms. Then again he was Quartermaster of the Band equipment for his high school. I dont think anyone here has espoused "lightening" the requirements for anyone. If a scout is active in sports, then he is active in sports, it will take that much longer for him to get in his 20 nights of camping in a tent for the camping merit badge. It will take him longer to get his hikes or cycling trips in or swimmimng in for those merit badges. If a scout is in a position of responsibility and does not perfrom satisfactory, take him out of the position before his term is up. It is the Scoutmaster's job to be sure each scout knows what is expected of him and to guide him to successful completion. If it cant be done due to outside activities, then the scoutmaster should relieve the scout of the responsibility until such time as the scout can do a good job. While I dont mind having scouts with other interests, I do mind scouts who dont do their jobs. If the scout wants to embrace a full and active life, I applaud it, I also want his scouting done with the same spirit he gives other activities. If scouts grumble that others who dont show up advance at the same rate that one who do show up, its not the absentee's fault, its the troops advancement system that should be reviewed. If a Senior Patrol Leader or other such leader is never around, doesnt communicate with the troop and gets credit for rank, I would grumble as well, not at the scout but at the system that rewards such behavior. There is nothing wrong with a scout with multiple interests, but there is also nothing wrong for holding a scout to the requirements. Now, to get to Bob White's original idea, to me "active" means when the scout receives an assignment, anywhere from being SPL to planning a patrol's menu to doing the evening dishes, it gets done to the satisfaction of all involved. If someone takes on a responsibility and does not complete it, he cant say I was at practice, or I had a game. As wise Master Yoda says "...there is no try, only do or do not..." If you promise to do something or are assigned, a scout may be counted on to do it. If he doesnt, I dont care how many meetings he attends or campouts he goes on, he is not an active scout!(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I suppose Boy Scouts could be just like band or a sports team Ed. But that would mean we might have to adopt the mindset that "our" activity alone is the center of the scouts universe with no room for any other thoughts and activities. That I do not think is the goal of the program. I suppose a troop could require stringent activity levels, but then only the hardest of hardcore boys would benefit from the program and the troop would probably never grow beyond 10-15 scouts. While those boys might have a wonderful experience, I shudder to think of all the boys who might have found something valuable if they only had a chance but were shut out due to capricious and arbitrary rules set out by a despotic Scoutmaster who has no regard for the BSA program. In many similar threads I have listed many famous Americans who were atheletes and Eagle Scouts, Bill Bradley and Hank Aaron amoung them. I hate to think the reason there arent more recent examples because sports and scouts have decided its one or the other. The Ancient Greek culture had an image of true manliness, it was thought of an athelete, physically strong and also a poet. One who understood the geometry of the arc of the javelin as he threw it. One who could play a musical intrument as well as he could wrestle. As gifted in the arts as he was interested in politics. Its interesting as much as we admire the ancient civilizations, we make it nearly impossible for kids to become what has become characterized as a "renaissamce man"

In the ones I do as Advancement Chair for our Disrict I am most apt to ask some of the following: Which of the 12 points of the scout law would you delete What would you replace it with What was you most memorable scouting experience, good or bad? Who is a hero/role model to you and why/ Finish this sentence, Boy Scouts would be so much better if they only did (blank) What role does your faith play in your life, Where do you see yourself in 10 years in 20 years, will you still be active in scouting? Did your Eagle Project turn out as planned? What would you do different in your project? What did you learn form your project? What advice would you give a new scout, just crossing over on how to best succeed in scouting? Do all your friends know you are a scout? If I told your friends you are an Eagle Scout, would they expect it or be shocked and amazed, and why? These are some, and I think its noteworthy that all of my and Ed's questions are rather open ended with few right or wrong answers and do not touch on scouting skills (even knots !!!)

"One can view the asking of a Scout to tie knots during a SMC as a review." Perhaps one can, and one also could regard this as a blatant, outright mis-use of the Eagle scoutmaster conference. If someone can rationalize knot tieing as a stumbling block to Eagle in the Scoutmaster conference, that someone has no place as an adult leader much less as a scoutmaster. Strong words yes, but I am tired of having the BSA program being twisted to serve as ego support for a myriad of demagogues who have taken to torturing boys so they can prove in at least one place in their sad pathetic lives they have some vestige of power

BTW, the Adult Patrol didnt use my idea for the patrol call "Second star to the left and straight on till morning"

Our Scouter Patrol (no one would call us adults and we didnt want to acknowledge we are grown-up) is called the Vultures, mostly becaue we dont cook. The patrols are tasked with cooking enough food for their share of scouters at a meal, we hang back and then swoop in for the food. (after making sure all the scouts have eaten first) Our Patrol Totem is a feathered Vulture I got from Wal-Mart a few Halloweens ago, I put a cross piece on a old rake handle and wired it on, he is known as Buzz. Our patrol yell is "we are watching you"

I go away for three days to Las Vegas (business trip, a business trip to Las Vegas, what an oxymoron)and I come back to a discussion of scat. Well I have to lend in my opinion. The definitive scat has to be Minnie the Moocher sung by Cab Calloway, although Dizzy Gillespie and Louis Armstrong didnt do to badly either and on the female side Ella Fitzgerald cant sound bad no matter what she does, and she does sing scat as well. so in conclusion Hi-Dee-Hi-Dee-Hi-Dee-Hoe Hi-Dee-Hi-Dee-Hi-Dee-Hoe

I for one would hate to have to tally the number of times white men cheated and broke treaties versus the number of times the native americans did.

Ghosthunter, you said "I have a problem with the women leaders who are on their own cruisade to change the face of scouting to what they feel scouting should be all about, throwing many years of tradition out the window and writing their own curriculum." I concur, I also have a problem with male leaders who want to change the program to their own curriculum. Leaders (male or female) who want to define what an active is by means of attendance at meetings and outings. Leaders who expect scouts to remember every scout skill they ever learned and expect them to know the answers to all merit badges they ever learned and want to be so sure that the leaders are never embarassed by their "boys" (like they were chattell)that they add requirements to ranks, make up rules as they see fit, and think they rule the troop. It can happen male or female

I dont think it was Camo that got the parent in trouble, it was the pseudo-representation of a military uniform that is the trouble. Wearing Camo is fine, its impresonating a military uniform that will get you in trouble. Now, there is a district in our Council that banned Camo at all District event, I think that moronic, but thats only my opinion, people have the right to be wrong.

On the contrary, I think this month's issue of Boy's Life is the exception, nomrally it shows scouts in full uniform in the most improbable places doing unlikely activities (for wearing a dress uniform that is)

jbroganjr One thing to keep in mind is that not every scouter may have had the opportunity to attend a professional skills seminar and see the information presented. Take a look at the thread on what people occupations are and I think you will see many would not have had reason to attend management seminars. Having a Master's degree in Public Administraiton and attending Dale Carneige classes as a student and student teacher and atrending numerous management seminars I agree that the skills presented in Wood Badge arent anything new. but if you have never seen it, its new to you. In our troop alone we have a Union welder, financial planner, Physician, dentist, Union Insulation installer, General Contractor, IS director, etc. Not all have seen the type of presentation done at Wood Badge and I could see how it would be difficult to intrigue a jaundiced participant such as myself while not losing a first time viewee. Perhaps having had your experience you and your patrol or with other attendees could help with the next class so all the problems you experinced would not reoccur

Sctmom, Having attended Wood Badge last September and a proud ol'Bear, I can tell you 3 of the 5 members of my patrol were Cub Scouters. One, Momma Bear camped out with us having set up her own tent and no one thought anything of it. The three Cub Leaders never mentioned anything to me about the skills only being applicable to Boy Scouts. Having attended the course, I would venture to say a total non-scouter could take the training and walk away with new knowledge, although his ticket could be difficult (LOL)

To me Wood Badge (two words) was cloaked in mystery. When I joined my current troop Wood Badge was talked about as only for the truly diehard and when I asked the "beaded ones" about it, all I was told was it was "great", "wonderful", "a mountain experience", and the "best thing I ever did". When I asked what was done, I got evasive answers bordering on the rude. The "beaded ones" wanted to talk about the day they received their invitation to Wood Badge, for three years I thought you had to be invited to a class, no one mentioned signing up on your own. The "inner circle" of District people were all "beaded people" and only seemed to want to talk to other Then, when the new Wood Badge started, I found out you signed up to be "invited" and I attended. After signing up I wanted to know about what was involved in tickets and again ran into the cloak of darkness. Well, I attended Wood Badge this past fall, it was training for Leadership, organization, etc skills. It was material I have seen many times before, but at Wood Badge it was different. It was having over 60 (attendees and staff) people who wanted to be there, who wanted to do good things and all had the same values. I think the aura of Wood Badge is changing, I think it was claoked in secrecy, but is trying to fight its way out.