OldGreyEagle

I guess this morning you should call me Old Grumpy Eagle, but I think we established that Wiccan was a religion that BSA recognized as a belief system that fulfilled the religious principles part of BSA. And while I dont understand Wiccan, I also dont understand Hinduism, Buddism and Islam, but I dont get on a forum and make fun of their belief system either. neicie posted here and said she was willing to answer questions about Wiccan and all we can do is post jokes and insults. I wonder what her view of Boy Scout leaders is after this display of acceptance? neicie, not all Boy Scout leaders make fun of what they dont understand, I would like to learn more (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

From page three of the Eagle Scout Leadership Setvice Project Workbook 18-927B 2001 Major Heading: Approvals Heading: Before You Start it says: "Your project must be approved by your unit leader, unit committe and council or district advancement committee before the project is started..." By your posting it cant be an Eagle project as district approval was done after project completion. Now, you have already alluded to a potential problem. You son says its a "lame project", the other three proabably feel the same way. In a few years another "lame" project will come up and how will you or your troop defend turing it down when they can point to this project and ask why wasnt it challenged. I understand precedents can change, its just very hard on all concerned. Piggy-backing on all that has been said about Eagle projects, its also an exercise in following directions, if you cant read past page 1 of the instruciton booklet, how well did you follow it?

Eamonn, funny, you dont look Druish(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Nope, not yellow, alecia moore

Ok Ed, I dont want to continue to beat a dead horse that wont take a drink, even if its a diiferent color, One Page 12 of the 1999 Scoutmaster Handbook, first page of chapter 3 under the bolded Text "leaders of the boy-led troop" it states "Boy Scouts is a small democracy" it doesnt say sometime democracy it doesnt say unless the scoutmaster knows better, it states "Boy Scouts is a small democracy" to apppont leaders rather then have the constituents elect thjem is not the boy scout way. Obviously it can be done, but just because I can do something, doesnt mean it makes it right.

If the BSA didnt stop Tonto from using Scout, I dont think they can stop Wiccans either, take a look at the thread "Taking up the Chal;enge" I just updated it

Who was that said "there is nothing new under the sun?"

Now Ed, if I paint them green, no one will see them and then whats the point? Our camp is literally in the forest and there are trees and ferns everywhere. What to do?, What to do? I got it, my flamingoes and elephants will be alecia moore and thats it.

Ed, did the members of the provsional patrol elect the patrol leader ? Thats the point. You may remember this, a few years back we had a US president who wasnt elected. No, I dont mean GW, I mean Gerald Ford. Ford became president having never even participated in a general naitonal election. I know his ascendancy was quite legal. He took over the job of vice-president after the resingation of Spiro Agnew. Then when Richard Nixon resigned Ford became president. (I recount this for our junior members) It was all quite legal and constitutional, but I sure remember my father and his friends were not quite happy having a president that was not elected. Now, Ford became president because the country had to follow the rules under which it operates, there is no issue with that. I cant see why a provsional patrol wouldnt follow the rules of scouting and elect its own patrol leader. It is the Scoutmasters job to train leaders,

here's a thought, its oriented to next years camp though. On the last day of camp, gather the PLC together. Our camp has a dining hall, so for breakfast the PLC sits together and talks about what they should do for next year, the scribe writes it down and them 1 month before camp next year, the next PLC will review it, why keep reinventing the wheel? However its down the kids will have great ideas on how to improve the experience but you gotta get it just after camp or they lose it

Then they wont match the elephants I have planned for the back area

ASM1, Lets say I am a somewhat disaffected American citizen. I am not too sure just what to believe right now. If you are serious about making a "regime change" I am the person you need to convince. The way I see 1/3 of the voting public always votes republican, 1/3 of the country votes democratic, its the other 1/3 that determines elections. So, you know you cant convince the 1/3 always voting republicans no matter what you say, you have to convince the middle third. How is using rhetoric about us being sheep, being blind, and other vindictives likely to change the views of anyone?

Oh Please Dont Let that be true, otherwise my plan to have a dozen flamingos (plastic of course) stuck outside my Summer Camp tent would be in jeopardy...

Ed, Thanks for the reprieve, but I would be posting this anyway. I agree that a scout should be a good follower and should obey whomever his patrol leader is. However, In the concept of a boy led troop, the boys elect their own patrol leader, I know we all agree on that. Now, as we all have experienced, from time to time not enough boys from each of the troops standing patrols attend an outing and thus a make-shift "provisional patrol" is formed, perhaps with 3 from one patrol, 3 from another and 2 from again another. Now, the Scoutmaster "COULD" assign a patrol leader to the group. Maybe one of the eight is already a patrol leader or lacking that, an Asisntant Patrol Leader. And being good scouts, we (the adults) could/should expect the patrol to be fine. Actually that was my thnking from my first post on this thread. Then, after reading Bob's response, it reminded me of something. Now, I can't find my copy of the current Scoutmaster's handbook (I think its packed for camp) so I will have to make do with my 1999 copy. I cant beleive this passage is now much different: The first sentence of Chapter 3 in the Scoutmaster Handbook , 1999 reads "Empowering Boys To Be Leaders is the core of scouting", if you are going to have provisional patrol, why wouldnt you get the group together and tell them you will be back in 15 minutes and you want a patrol name and Patrol Leader, Asst Patrol Leader, et al? Would that not be the way best of keeping the sprit of the boy lead troop alive? Having the boys choose rather than the scoutmaster assign? Interesting enough, in a highlighted section with green background and bold black text on the same page it says: "One of your most important challenges as Scoutmaster is to train boy leaders to run the troop by providing direction, coaching, and support. They will make mistakes now and then and will rely upon you to guide them. But only through real hand-on experience as leaders can boys learn to lead. Doesnt say a word about learning to be a follower is training to be a leader PS: Dont worry Ed, I think Bob will have a reply to you as well(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Hops. Awesome, Way kewl, and Far out I am so glad you post here, reminds the place why we do what we do...

How accurate this statement is, or isnt isnt the the point. The fine folks at SCOUTER make this forum available and even divide it into sections. This subject should be in the Politics section

::waking up:: Huh, what?

And Ed, feel free to corrct my typos, that is if you have time and feel up to Herculean task number 8 :-)

Always taking a slightly different view dont we Ed, actually Serutun is Nutures backward Serutan is Natures backward ;-P

The greatest song of all times from the Greatest Movie of all times: chorus): Follow me boys, follow me, When you think your really beat That the time to lift your feet, And follow me boys, follow me, Pick'em up, put'em down and follow me, Pick'em up, put'em down pick'em up. There's a job to do, There's a fight to win, Follow me boys, follow me, And it won't be time till we all pitch in, Lift your chin with a grin and follow me. (chorus) It's a long long climb, But we've got the will, Follow me boys, follow me, When we reach the top Then It's all down hill, Till you drop don't you stop and follow me. (chorus) So the journeys end Is beyond our sight, Follow me boys, follow me, If we do our best And we've done alright, Pack your load, hit the road and follow me.

Just to be consistent, I have to say HOLY CRAP is not exactly scoutlike talk and I would appreciate not seeing that phrase again. I am glad you are reporting to the scout executive BTW, you should know if you ask this group for advice you will get it, from all angles and with great passion, welcome aboard(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Hey WJ, I know you are sorta new on this forum, and you might like to know le Voyageur is a native American and is a wealth a knowledge on the subjects you seek. Pay very close attention to him, it will serve you well.

I find myself in sorta weird position here, first I was way off base with my first post, I guess I saw red that a scout would feel it wasnt fair to be burdened with members of another patrol and I lost sight of the program. Well, just reaffirming my humanity. Now, why exclude anyone? Most likley a scout who has had leadership positions in the past will be elected by the scouts themselves, or not. The key is the scouts will have chosen a leader themselves so they have ownership of the process, it wasnt foisted on them. A Scout who wants to be a leader, prevented to do so by an adult could be a rather disruptive influence on the patrol. The whole point is, let them choose their own leader and the results have to be better than when a leader is given to them. PS Oh Sure Fotoscout, be that way, change your post while I am composing mine, anyway, all well that ends well(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

And I triple double dog dare you all to debate your points with logic and facts and keep vitriol, derision, affronts and plain old name calling out of it.

...While Nero Fiddled Rome Burned... Over in the Policital section of the Forum (actually its been hard to tell latley where that is) is a thread on Sexual Abuse of Explorers by police. I wonder if people suspected something was going on and then discussed it and felt it was just gossip or hearsay or something like that. I wonder how they feel now? The issue here isnt whether or not Michael Doulass and Catherine Zeta-Jones or Demie Moore and Ashton Kutcher couple exist, its whether or not basic Youth proteciton principles are followed. OXCCOPS, you have a choice, either report your suspicions to the Scout Executive per Youth Protection Principles or drop it. If you drop it, can you live with the chance that you might be right and other youth will be victimized and you could have stopped it? Actually a third choice is to continue talking about it while not reporting it. Again you run the risk of being able to say "I told you so" when abuse is uncovered, but not being able to explain why you thought so and did nothing.