OldGreyEagle

Hey, no matter what you say about is folks in Pennsylvania about our hunting seasons, we do love our guns and bibles...

Infortunately,Knuckle dragging, anarchronistic, misogynistic neanderthal, geico hating males are still part of the gene pool

The ones doing that Pack have as much claim to the title "Sportsmen" as the units Basement Dweller came upon on the Applachian Trail have claim to the title "Boy Scouts"

I do not beleive Kudu ever said that it was easy to teaach/train patrol leaders to take his patrol off without adults, only that Green Bill Bill's prescribed training in the Patrol Method was the best approach I think, if wrong I am sure it will be pointed out Note also, that to have a Patrol Outing in the "Old Days" it did require the patrol to develop a plan, submit to the scoutmaster who then either approved or turned the request. Its not like the BSA ever promoted the idea of a untrained kids flocking into the woods unsuoervised

WOW! I didnt know I knew so many rare girls, actually at this point they are young women. Thats a huge segment of the population dismissively swept away Not saying that its not true in your experience, but do allow for alternative experiences

Personally I am working on what relgious body declares a "christian saint"

"I've always thought there should be an overall "construction" MB which would focus more on stuff like estimating, reading blueprints, scheduling, etc." There is the Eagle project...

I don't know about you guys experience, but in the troop and Crews I serve, the youth when they bridge in don't know how to organize a one bicycle parade. It's not their fault, its something they have not been taught. Patrol Leaders do not possess the ability to teach Orienteering just because they are Patrol Leaders. They may be excellent in Orientation skills, but may not have the best concept on how to impart that knowledge to others. They need to be trained. Green Bar Bill has such a program in the pages Kudu maintains. http://inquiry.net/patrol/green_bar/index.htm It can't be bad to teach leadership, this is a quote from Kudu'd site "Boys are steadily growing and developing. The Scoutmaster's opportunity is to help them grow into fine types of leaders. To accomplish this, one Scout may need perpetual encouragement, another restraint, one subtle suggestion, still another definite direction; but all need guidance" I don't know how to "help them grow into fine types of leaders" without teaching them leadership skills. The issue comes down to the methods. If all you do is sit around and talk about how to do somehting, its pretty lame. If you tell someone how to do something and then show them how its done and then help them through the skill and then set up a situation where they get to use the skill. Then you may have something. Its the basis of the Patrol Leaders Training. Tell them what to do, Show them how its done, and help them through it and make sure they have the oppotunity to do the skills.

::Heaviest of Sighs Possible:: I do think we should take a breath and to paraphase the words of June Cleaver, "I think we are being awful tough on the Beavah" He is free to express his opinions as are we. Argue the facts or your thoughts, not how lousy Liberals/Conservative are. Not that Conservatives/Liberals aren't lousy you understand When Beavah first started posting, he and I would butt heads frequently and I can't say I always understood his thoughts. I am not so sure I understand a lot of what he says now, but he does get to say it and our reaction to it should be based on his words/ideas merit, not some arbitrary label we want to slap on it. other than that, Party On !

Range Instructor = SHooting Sports Director The Head Rangemaster has to be 21 or older, instructors may be less, but they work under the Supervision of the Shooting Sports Director What about reverse ageism? Why should I have to be a certain age to qualify for a Senior Citizen discount on Mass Transportation ? Is not AARP discriminating based on age for membership and insurance products? WHy are we talking about this anyway?

Pinky, are you pondering what I'm Pondering? That age distinction by any entity private or public and is ageist, which has been declared bad and should be eliminated. Therefore, there should be no such thing as Statutory Rape, there is no valid reason for prohibiting alcohol consumption by age. Not allowing those who can read from voting needs to end....

Don't you have to be 21 to be a Waterfront Director at Summer Camp or a Shooting Sports Director?

its been a few years but just a quick story A while back I was doing the Citizenship in the Nation Merit Badge and I asked what form of Government the US was. The kids say Democracy and I say, well no, its a Representative Republic (redundant I know) So, about a week later, I get a phone call from one of the Dads, says his scout was in School and the Social Studies class Teacher says that the US is a democracy and his scout says, Oh no, you are wrong, we live in a Representative Republic and proceeds to explain the differences between a Democracy and a Republic. Must have done a good job, the teacher asks where did he learn all that and he says, Mr GreyEagle form my Boy Scout Troop. The teacher was a little unsettled and then said, well, that is correct, its just a bit more advanced to what is normally taught at this level. Or something close to that It was one of the kids who I would have sworn was not paying attention. There are odd days in Scouting at times

Offering consructive criticism is definately a sign of a healthy organization, individuals who can do nothing but whine, wheedle, complain moan and **** about just about anything the organization does does give one pause to wonder about the stability of the person doing the whining, wheedling, complaining, moaning, and **** ing. Its like comming upon somebody poking themselves with a pin and screaming about the pain and then poking themselves again with the same pin. It doesnt take long to decide that is someone you want to give a lot of distance to Skeptic has a point, if something is such a source of pain, why stay around it?

We all know that loss of innocence is inevitable, why is it so traumatic? You would think as human's we would have built up an immunity to the pain over all these generations, Just a rhetorical thought.

I found this http://www.scouting.org/filestore/pdf/ageguides.pdf So now all we need to do is define "hand tool", or we could leave it up to the units to determine who can safely use what. A 17 year old High School senior in the Voc Ed Carpentry program may be a better fit on a circular saw that some guy who never has taken one out of a box before I did find this in the Guide to Safe Scouting In situations not specifically covered in this guide, activity planners should evaluate the risk or potential risk of harm, and respond with action plans based on common sense, community standards, the Boy Scout motto, and safety policies and practices commonly prescribed for the activity by experienced providers and practitioners. SOunds good to me

I was in the 4th grade, just after recess we were assembled to tour the Church Basement, it was to be the week end of the CHurch Holiday Bazaar. Halfway through the tour, I remember furtive voices and we were hustled back to our classroom and told to pray. The School principal came over the PA systemt to say the president was dead, he had been shot. I wasnt sure who she meant, I was looking right at the class president. Then somebody said, JFK was dead I remember watching TV with my dad that Sunday when Jack Ruby shot Oswald, live and the innumerable times they replayed it. The world was less innocent, more gray and not as much fun ever since

I think we complain about subtracting from the requirements all the time. In those Troops labeled "Eagle Mill" I beleive that requirements are never added and of course never completely followed else the term "Eagle Mill" would not apply

"...meet the expectations in order to be recognized." I thought it was defining the expectations is what prompted this thread in the first place, ...

"But I don't think illegals are entitled to be BSA leaders." I am not so sure "legals" are "entitled" to be BSA leaders either... its not a right, its a privilege

So, in a few years, the father of a prospective Webelos scout is visiting and its an INS agent/worker, would you place the responsibility on that person to either turn in or arrest or whatever somebody's dad? Secrets never turn out well Then again, so an IMS agent never is a father or mother in the troop. The collective you of the troop adults are however showing the youth that its ok to look the other way. Looking the other way is a time honored tradition that really doesnt hurt anyone it lets the youth know that if following the rules in incovenient than you actually don't have to follow them if everybody will just look the other way(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Another thought, There are those who can only exist if they are in the in the worst circumstances possible. I have worked with people who just knew for certain they worked in the most awful place on earth, were the most underapreciated employees in the entire world and it was a testiment to their skill and and ability to just function at an average or normal level. For them to admit to themselves that they themselves are average or normal is anathema to their own self image, therefore if they are not beheld for the majestic wonderfullness that they are, the only certain thing is they are being held down due to forces beyond their control. It is always something beyond them that is the core issue, its National, Its Council, Its District. They want to be the best and are not and seek an explanation.

I wouldnt get too upset, I see the forum as a sorta Employee Lounge. In Japan the employee lounge often has an effigy of the "boss" and encourage employees to blow off steam by screaming or beating on it. Here people blow off steam, If people were as totally distraught and outraged and disillusioned in the program as you might think from their posts, then you would have to question their sanity by staying with it and continuing to endure the torture that must define their BSA experience

There is a frequent contributor here on the Forum who likes to remind us when someone tells a story about how terrible and rotten and awful some unit/situation/adult is and that we need to give the person being described the benefit of the doubt that they are doing what they feel right. Should that courtesy also be extended to both the Professional and Volunteers who are at the National level? We may not understand what they do, but should we not respect their dedication to the program? Or is the assumption that nothing good can come from National? Is that not pre judging?

"The only adult member who has a say in a lodge's operations is the Supreme Chief of the Fire." Damn, so the decision to host Conclave 3 times and the guy whose WB ticket item was to improve the Camp's Chapel, done by the OA, was all the youth's idea? It's amazing how organized the youth are when they put on their OA hats on because in the Troops they certainly don't demonstrate those skills. When I helped with the Chapel project, I remember working for 6 hours, usually moving around the 4-6 OA Adults who were talking about how poorly planned the project was and how they would do it better. I think the project was fine, it looks good and we have the OA to thank, just not the guys who stood around and didnt work when it was time to Either that or a whole bunch of Flavor Aid is being consumed