OldGreyEagle

am from Minsi Trails Council, the grace card doesnt sound familiar. Will ask around though

kcolarusso, I love tangents, perhaps thats why I liked Geometry so much. Anyway, have you noticed that in the progression of Palms, awards a Scout may earn after attaining Eagle, it goes Bronze, Gold, Silver? A Silver Palm is higher than a Gold Palm so it makes sense the Silver Award would be higher than the Gold in Venturing. In this matter BSA is internally consistent. Now, from what I undestand, the reason Silver is placed above Gold comes from Ancient Roman History. Gold was the symbol of the Roman Army, and Silver was the mark of the Ceasar. Silver supposedly was more prized than gold, though both well sought after. Ranking Gold above Silver started with the Modern Olympic movement. The U.S. Military follows this tradition it awards a Silver Star, not a Gold Star for bravery in combat

Supportive Style of Leadership Bob, as the Patrol Leader of the Screaming Eagle patrol has to compile a menu for the upcoming Camporee. He could set the menu himself and not solicit any input from his patrol, but he knows instinctively that would be wrong. At the next patrol meeting Bob asks the patrol what the group would like to have on its menu. Some boys immediately yell out their own favorite foods while the more shy either dont talk or merely murmur an answer, impossible to hear over the cacophony. Bob raises his sign and settles the group down, Charlie, the grub master, offers to write down the menu and Bob concurs, thanking Charlie in a voice all can hear. Bob asks each boy what he would like to see on the menu, with the shy boys as much a contributor as the more raucous. Bob thanks each boy for his suggestion. One of the more quiet kids, Mortimer, suggests making donuts in a Dutch oven, seems he saw such a demonstration at summer camp and wants to try it. Bob asks the boy how its done, as Mort explains the process, Bob can see the patrols interests grow, Bob then asks who wants Mort to be the official doughnut maker for the patrol. With a unanimous cheer, Mort gets the job. Breakfast will be more than just doughnuts, but this will be dessert The boy grins, hardly anyone listens to him and promises the patrol the best doughnuts a Dutch oven can provide. Bob tells him he cant wait to taste one and is glad Mort brought up the idea. The rest of the patrol also all tell Mort they cant wait either. Another boy, Rashan, a Hindu, says his religious beliefs dictate he must follow a strict vegetarian diet. The boys come up with alternate food items so Rashans dietary restrictions are followed, but the boys are still eating what they want. Bob suggests Rashan make an authentic Indian rice dish with curry and full seasoning if the patrol wants him to . The rest of the patrol says that is a great idea. Rashan is excited, and promises the best rice dish the boys have ever seen. Bob thanks the boys for so quickly handling Rashans food issue. Charlie goes over the menu to be sure every meal is accounted for and everyone likes he items listed, Charlie does all of the talking, Bob thanks him. Bob asks who needs shopping for food as a rank requirement, Frank, a newer member of the patrol says he does. Charlie quickly says he will help Frank and all Bob does is nod and thanks Charlie for stepping in to help without being asked. Rashan says he needs to be the Patrol Cook, but has a problem with the requirement, after a whispered conversation Bob announces to the group Rashan wants to be patrol cook, but cant prepare meat as it would be against his religious principles. Fred, the most accomplished cook in the patrol, says he will help with the meat dishes, Bob thanks Fred, Rashan looks relieved and the matter is closed. Bob thanks Mort for the idea of Dutch oven doughnuts Bob Thanks Charlie for writing every thing down Bob thanks Rashan for wanting to do the rice dish Bob congratulates Charlie for stepping up to help Frank Bob thanks the whole patrol for working around Rashans dietary restrictions Bob thanks Fred for helping out with the cooking Bob thanks the patrol for getting every thing done In completing the task of Menu planning Bob A. Involved others in the Decision Making Process B. Encouraged Participation C. Valued Differences D. Shared Leadership E. Acknowledged and Praised Contributions F. Built relationships Bob's job now is to be near enough to evaluate the patrols performance so that if needed he can step in if things get off track and help the individuals make good decisions to get the task back

kcolarusso, If you think differentiating between the GS Gold award and the BS Eagle award is tough, just wait until you have to explain the difference between the Venturing Silver and Gold Awards and the Girl Scout Silver and Gold Awards ...

Lets move the talk about Mom and parents to the thread Parents at Summercamp in the Summercap section of the forum. Scoutdad has an issue I dont want to cloud with a secondary issue (yes, I admit I started the secondary issue)

I took this here because of a comment made in a thread in the open program section discussing an over energetic mother and the swimming requirements. I dont want to hijack that thread as the person who statrted the thread has a few serious issues he needs help with. My question is, what are your attitudes about parents at summercamp? I have commented before I come from a large troop (78 scouts), and that we have a Pediatrician as our Committee chair. She is very committed to the Troop. Both of her sons made Eagle, and her youngest just graduated from College. She sees Boy Scouts as an excellent program for many of her patients. As such we have perhaps some unusual circumstances in our troop that perhaps dont occur in others. She arrives at summercamp with two footlockers, one with her stuff, and one with the troops meds, both are the same size. Her DEA license is on file at the Health Lodge so she can dispense medication on grounds. This years Staff seemed predisposed to strep throat so the local Wal-Mart Pharmacy was inundated with anti-biotic prescriptions from her, but I digress. The last two years we have lost first year kids to home sickness. We didnt want to let them go, tried what we could, but in the end I cant think of a more contagious condition that home sickness, one kid starts to well up, a bunch do and then its tough to control. We've had older, and even intermediate scouts talk to the home sickies and sometimes it works and some times it dont. The Doctor commented on the two who left this year that they may have made it if they knew a parent was comming at the mid point, or if the parent would have stayed all week. Having parents walk kids around from session to session is not at all unusual in this troop, I thought that was common, but given some replies I am not sure. What about parents at summercamp? We never turn anybody away and always have a good time (as adults) what have others experienced?

I know we shouldnt pick at a single point, generally unrelated to the topic at hand, but of course, since I am writing this, you know I am gonna do it anyway. So, that being said, Scoutmaster Ron is having Mom at summercamp an issue? Maybe it isnt and I am just one big over paranoid doofus, but I just had to ask.

Having been an adult Venture Crew memeber for a few years, I have seen a few of the boys make Eagle in their troop and a few girls make Gold in their Girl Scout troop. Of course, the efforts of those invovled is fodder for late night campfire chat and pre and post meeting debate. From my perspective, the biggest difference seems to be in the project. The Girl Scout must first earn the "Silver" award before she can earn Gold. To earn Silver, she must accomplish a "minor" service project. I say minor because it is usually not on the scale of Gold or Eagle project, I am sure of exceptions. The BSA has nothing like that, the Eagle scout leadership project is the first time the scout will undertake a formal project, troop responsibilities not withstanding. The Gold Project has a certain number of hours the girl herself must put into it, the Eagle does not. The Gold project seems to be oriented to accomplshing the task, either by herself or with others. The Eagle project is geared to having the boy lead the project and not do it himself. A Gold project may be for the Girl Scouts or Girl Scout property, an Eagle Scout project may not be for a Boy Scout entity or Boy Scout property. These are my observations, I am not sure if I understand all the intricacies of the Girl Scout Gold, so if I am wrong on particulars, I aplogize, just adding another view. The matter of which is harder/better, not an asked quesiton but always swirling in in the subtext is dependent on so many variables, I wouldnt hazzard a guess. I would say that those who earn either, by what I have seen, have a right to be proud, and an obligation to help others

Gee thanks FOG, but I already did that and didnt get a feeling why Mic-O-say got startred when the AO would seem to have served the same purpose.

Put me in the "never heard of you guys anyway" crowd, and I grew up in the Chicago suburbs. But, having said all that, why did Mic-0-say start anyway? What does it do, fill us poor ignorant saps in(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

"It is far less important to the goals of dcouting where you sleep at night. What is important are the asctivities you do while awake." Sounds like a workable philosophy even outside the world of scouting, huh, what? there is a world outside of scouting? This warrants investigation, I'll be back...

Thats why I love Scouting so much, most of it is in tents. In our troop, we have a few troop tents, mostly the boys bring their own tents and we dont have much of an issue with lost parts, wrecked tents because then you have to answer to Dad,(or Mom) who is a much stronger force than "the troop". As a sidelight, who doesnt have tents for their whole troop? With a Troop of 78, and 40 or more on every outing, keeping us in tents is easy, or hard depending how you lok on it.

Good Luck and Godspeed btps

I guess its just the jackass in me that cant let this go. I cant see any reason why anyone would not present a troop program that enables a scout to reach First Class in a year, thats all FCFY promises(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Mark, Sorry, I did jump on that, but I keep seeing FCFY misrepresented and always try to set the record straight, I may have been a bit strong. I understand your predicament about posting, its not for the weak of heart. Barry, if you can say "So that is why I say First Class in one year is bad marketing for a program that is about developing character, fitness and citizenship." after reading my post then you missed the whole point of my post and I am quite chagrined and vexed in my inability to lucidly delineate the context of my essay. FCFY is only bad marketing when it is not used properly. To say FCFY is bad marketing to me is like saying a gun is a bad thing. Neither is true, but both can be used in a bad way. Doesnt make either bad, just subject to the whims and caprice of those who use them. If new leaders get the wrong idea, are the trainers using the syllabus? Do the trainers understand the program? We know from experience that trainers, from their own words here in the forum like to emblellish the curriculum, maybe the whole point was emblellished into oblivion. To get a scout to First Class in a year takes one heck of a troop program well designed and carried out. Along the way adancement requirements are met, since the program will by necessity need the 8 methods of scouting, the aims of developing citizenship, fitness and charactor have to follow. If I cant make it any clearer than that, that I have failed in my oration and I do aplologize since I know that you, as I love this scouting stuff

"once more into the breach dear friend..." First Class First Year is NOT an artificial mechanism that puts undue stress on advancement. I dont know how its used on other units, Districts, and Councils, but thats not the program. FCFY is a program that allows the scout to "make" first class in 12-14 months IF he avails himself of the opportunities provided by the Troop Program. When a Troop says it runs a FCFY program, it means it has a New Scout Patrol, it has an ASM charged with watching over the NSP's activities and it uses Experienced Scouts as a Patrol Guide. The Troop them commits itself to have a program that has enough troop/patrol activities to have the NSP advance in rank, IF they attend. A poster commentted he wasnt in a "camping troop", following first class first year the troop has to at least have enough campouts to allow the NSP to choose their campsite, pitch a tent and sleep in it, shop for food, cook the required meals, find their way at night, use a compass during the day, etc. Maybe not all have to be on camp outs, the idea is , does the activities the troop do cover the requirements for reaching first class? When the First Year is over, the troop is NOT a failure if all in the NSP are not first class. The Troop is a failure if the NSP was not presented with the opportunity to become first class by attending scheduled events. As Advancement Chair I have been told until First Class First Year came about, adult leadership didnt realize all that was required to become first class, that FCFY helped them organize themselves. Following FCFY just makes sense. Now, if a boy would rather play basketball, and then Hockey, and baseball and then football, well, he will miss a lot of meetings and events. We will keep him on the roster but obviously he will not advance near as fast as those he bridged in with who attend every event. And thats fine, as long as he realizes his advancement is based on sucessfully completing the requirements. And if he doesnt realize it, it will be hitting square between the ears. And we have some scouts like that, they take what they want from the program and advancement isnt important to them. After all, its only one of 8 methods. So, the conundrum is, is it making first class in the first year that retains the scout, or the fact that the troop provides a program that was so active and presented so many "neat" things to do that the boys just stay and advancement come naturally? and then, does it matter? But please, can we get over myth FCFY demands artifical advancement? It just means the scouts have been provided the program and the support to make first class, they still have to hike the hikes, tie the knots and cook the meals Peace out

Twocubdad, you said: "If you'll allow me the liberty of slaughtering an old proverb, "Tell a boy what is ethical and he'll be ethical for a day. Teach a boy to THINK ethically and he will be ethical for a lifetime." " While BSA says: "The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law." Isn't nice to know the both of you are in agreement over this?

(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Well, I was trying to be easy on the old timers, next year we go to 40!!!

Doing merit badges during your weekly meeting is a sign of a poor troop program. (Unless the merit badge has a direct correlaiton to the Troops theme) Merit Badges are not intended to be taught in a grand classroom style, rather they are to be partof the scouts exposure to adult association (with all YP guidelines followed) You have parents who want more merit badges taught during meetings, you have prospective committee members or ASM's begging for training.

Then what kind of troop are you?

Ah yes, the paradox of the Boy Lead Troop. If its truly out and out Boy Lead, how many will plan the 20 mile hike, or set up the trip to Philmont, or Sea Base. I guess thats where adult training comes in and use of the Directing, Supporting, Coaching and Delegating strategies comes in.

Ok, what would you (the rhetorical you) use for a fitness test, run a mile in (blank), lift X amount in a bench press, what?

we could start by saying no scouter can be 50 pounds over his ideal height/weight chart as published by the National Nutrition Organization (just made up) or other acceptable organization.

Ya' Know FOG, you may have just hit on something there. It may do us all (scouts and scouters alike) some good if physical requirements were more present in the scouting arena. For scouters, you cant be on a high adventure trek unless you are under some percentage of weight for your age and height You cant be a National Jamboree Leader without being under some percentage of weight for your age and height You Cant be a Scoutmaster without being under some percentage of weight for your age and height The same with scouts, maybe losing a few pounds to be under a guideline for making a rank is just what a scout needs. I cant see running a mile in a certain time or less, but while scouting tends to round a guy out, there is round, and there is ROUND. The whole image of scouting could be improved by more "fit" leaders with a more "fit" bunch of scouts in tow. Now, just whose charts do we use and what percentage do we want to hit?