OldGreyEagle

Acco40, The BSA may not allow Boy Scout troops to hunt, but Hunting is an elective in the Venturing High Adventure program. http://usscouts.org/advance/venturing/electives/hunting.html

(just a note to all you Fractious Older Guys and Gals, notice how we disagree but no one, even Bob White (hee hee) has personally attacked anyone?) The problem with comparing Eagle requirements with college degree requirments is the BSA has set the standards. There is no comparison. The BSA isnt like a college, its like the BSA. Now, about this Camp where scouts enter in a week and leave as First Class, THAT is a problem unless a major amount of requirements are already done. I agree with you there, that does sound like somethings wrong. It looks like we could take this Eagle thing around and round and I am not sure any of us will change. So, this is my last post on this thread. I look forward to your contributions on other issues

Rudd Buddy, again, we have to disagree. The signature of the scout leader on the blue card for a merit badge occurs before the scout starts the merit badge. If a scout gets a leader signed blue card and comes back with a signature of a counselor who is registered for that merit badge indicating a completed badge, the troop committee has no business deciding if they will award the badge. The scout did all he was supposed to, you cant deny him the badge. I do understand what you say about Summer Camp merit badges. However, here is a thought, why not have your troop committee go to your council and demand the teaching of the First Aid merit badge come up to standards? Knowing a bad situaiton exists and allowing it to continue is not scoutlike. Rather than ignore the situation, why not be the catylst of change? The troop sounds like it has a lot of passionate dedicated people, it would be nice if they also followed the program

Mark, I would like to think GMTA (Great Minds Think Alike) but the key may be in the slogan, if you want a fast efficient way to do something, assign it to a lazy man. I will allow forum members to decide which is the case. Ryon, what you are developing is sometimes called a PERT Chart (Program Evaluation Review Technique) the US Navy pioneered the technique while working on Polaris Submarine Missile Program* You set a goal and then work back to include everything you need to accomplish the goal. Use it, it works. * In respect to accuracy, here is a link referencing the Polaris program, I wouldnt want to claim anything I cant back up http://whatis.techtarget.com/definition/0,,sid9_gci331391,00.html(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

On a secondary note, does anyone have an official, "show me where its written" reference for the dont do anything military "policy"" Wallace sorta referenced it and I would like to know if anything is actually written anywhere. At our summer camp, as I would imagine at most, the day starts with colors, the troops assemble on the parade field, salute the American flag as it is hoisted to the accompaniment of a canon shot and bugle. Then at night the flag is retrieved also to a canon shot and bugle after which the troops "report" in. If scouts are'nt supposed to do any thing military, I need an explanation of how the flag raising and retrieving ceremonies are characterized. I dont think being like the military is a bad thing. We wake to reveille, we have ranks, we have patrols, we have troops, we salute the flag, we have as our aims charactor, citizenship and personal fitness. Again, sounds pretty near to the military to me. And again, I dont think its bad

I see nothing wrong with an Honor Guard with Rifles, I see it as a tradition, much as having "In God we trust" printed on the country's money even in defiance of separation of church and state. One of the local high schools has an honor guard, they have rifles as well. I dont think anyone feels that a school with a rifled honor guard is promoting guns in school any more than scouts are promoting a military look. as a side note, in the 2002 movie Spy Game with Robert Redford and Brad Pitt, the following exchange occurs between Robert Redford's and Pitt's charactor: Redford: Where did you learn to shoot like that? Pitt: Boy Scouts sir! Now that is the image I want to promote, good skills and proud of where they came.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Hey scoutldr, I do the same thing. I always buy the council strip as well. I know I can buy different strips in many scout stores, but I can say I was there when I show my collection. My favorite has to be the Arbuckle Council in southern Oklahoma, as you may expect it has Jon, Odie and Garfield on it, I love it. Been to Balboa park as well, The scout store backs up against the zoo as you mentioned and right next door is the Girl Scout office, what do they pay? Anybody know?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Just got word from our Council Rep these are the qualificaitons to be President of the Councils Venturing Council. This is a youth council made up of representatives of council crews. What gives me a sense of pique is the youth have not seen this, agreed to this, or the ones at summercamp dont even know this is out there. The rep says these are naitonal standards and the youth HAVE to accept them. Does anybody know if thats true? Have you seen these before? Comments? 1. Be a currently registered in Venturing in the Council. 2. Be a present or past Crew President or present or past Chairperson or Officer in the Venturing Executive Board (VEB). 3. Be recommended and approved by your Crew Advisor. 4. Be under 22 years of age at the time of election and be under 22 years of age during your term of office TERM OF OFFICE From October to September (One year Term) RESPONSIBILITIES (Job Description) 1. Serve as the youth Venturing President on the Council Venturing Executive Board 2. Serve as a Non Voting youth member of the Council Executive Board 3. Responsible to the Council Venturing Executive Board Advisor 4. Supports the Venturing programs and activities designated by the Council 5. Attends and participates in Council meetings and activities as requested and approved the VEB Advisor 6. Attends regional, area, and or council meetings and activities when invited and on approval of the VEB Advisor. 7. Assist in council Venturing activities 8. Supports the Council in any effort to train Venturing officers and Advisors. 9. Serve in a leadership role for any Council event as assigned by the VEB Advisor and Venturing staff. 10. Agrees to wear the official Venturing uniform and identity items 11. Agrees to resign from office if requested by the Scout Executive Candidates must submit name and bio to the Council office addressed to Council Venturing Committee by November of each year The Council Youth Venturing President will be selected by the Council VEB and the Council Venturing Chairperson and the Venturing Staff Advisor with approval by the Scout Executive.

Bob help me out here, I keep hearing different numbers flung around and you know I want to be accurate and not spread untruths. Near as I can remember, the amount of scouts who make Eagle are between 3-5 percent of all scouts, with 5 percent being on the high side. It would be tough to imagine what the Eagle rate would be if National instituted "high standards"... Rudd, I know you are a new poster here and evidently have great passion for scouting and I applaud your intense scouting spirit, but also know part of this forum is engaging in disagreements. You may think there is nothing wrong with having a set criteria of hours, the BSA policy does not. To set a criteria is against BSA policy. The troop, however well intentioned, is not offering the BSA program to its members as it promised. On page 2 of the Eagle Scout Leadership Service Project Workbook (BSA publication 18-927B)it says this under the requirement of Size: " How big a project is required? There are no specific requirements, as long as the project is helpful to a religious institution, school, or community. The amount of time spent by you in planning your project and the actual working time spent in carrying out the project should be as much as is necessary for you to demonstrate your leadership of others. " How does this troop explain to the scout that while the national publication that guides him along the path to Eagle says there is no size requirement, but the troop has one?

Sorry if this is rude, Rudd, but I highly doubt National ever supported your troops position on this in any way. As far as your troops attitude of Our way or the highway, all I can say is "my, what a fine scoutlike attitude" ?

This is an approach you may wish to try, it may have a little more of a directing style of leadership, but I think once you get rolling, you can slip into supporting, delegating and coaching. This takes a little prep work but if you do it, it will reap rewards One of the problems with planning for a year is that younger scouts see a year as almost an eternity, and for some kids who dont know what they will do tomorrow, a whole year just seems impossible to plan. So, break it down for them. On a huge sheet of paper make a calendar for the 12 month period you are going to plan. List each day, all 365 days (unless it covers a leap year February like 2004) Mark on the Calendar your regularly scheduled troop meetings in black magic marker. Identify weeks with no meeting due to holidays etc, mark these with an X. Find out when the fall camporee, Klondike derby, spring camporee, other district and council events are and put these down in pencil. Have the sheet of paper on the wall when the PLC comes in. They will see the entire year represented in a single place. They will see their regular meetings already filled in. Now the task of planning for the year seems like it can be done. Ask about the troop attending the Camporees, Klondikes, COuncil/District events. The PLC has to agree to attend, but let them voice it. If they agree, then write on the calendar over the dates the event occurs. If they dont want to attend, ask them what they want to do that week end, get some kind of event. Dont let it go as we will do something, identify the activity and delegate getting info on that activity to a scout. Put his name on the calendar along with the event on the dates. You may wish to establish a goal of a camping trip a month with another day activity a month as well such as scouting for food. With things like camporees, klondikes and summercamp, you should be able to come up with 12 activities fairly fast. Add a canoe trip, back pack trip, winter cabin, etc (just suggestions, you have the guys decide). Then, once your activities are all down, you start on meeitngs. Well, if you do have a canoe trip planned for October, then you need a menu planned and provions bought by when? You can look at the calendar and see when it needs to be done. You might have a few preparation meetings, do safety afloat etc. Have a Bike HIke? Needs safe bike riding instructions, maybe have a presentation on quick repairs, etc. Once you see what the group wants to do, the preparations will fall in naturally before hand. Select your themes first or second, its up to them, You can record everything, along with responsible people on the sheet. No person gets more than one or two things to do. When you are done, the huge sheet gets saved and is displayed at every meeting, so kids can see what is comming up, but you also break it down to a single sheet of paper for the scouts personal calender to have at home. Put on it who is responsible to do what items. I know this sounds like a lot of work, and the prep work is, but when you start writing things down on the paper and dates get filled in, and people assigned, I think you can get some group dynamics going. They can see what they will do and when, its better than a scribe writing on a single sheet of loose leaf paper. I hope I described this so you can understand. Next time the SPL brings the paper and have the PLC elect a moderator and run the meeting and you watch, This boy run stuff might just catch on

While flying out of Atlanta, after an extended delay (Extended delay out of Atlanta? Now thats redundant) I noticed that the July In-Flight magazine Delta provides had a nice ad for BSA, very sedate and professional looking. As much as we berate BSA for our perceived lack of PR, this layout was very nice. Did anyone else see it?

I guess I will have to retire from this thread and retire my dog. I do find humor in the fact that in the end I wasnt enough of a pompous, arrogant, pedantic, closeminded bookthumper to satisfy FOG. He does have tough standards to measure up to.

Well, if the subsidy thing wont work, I guess a bill for the amount Dsteele suggested is fair, with interest of course to be added.

Rudd, you realize of course that this policy of your old troop is in direct opposition with BSA policy. There is no set number of hours for an Eagle project and for your troop to establish a minimum, no matter how well intentioned, is adding requirments to eatablished BSA criteria.

here is the link to the leave no trace home page, it should suit your purpose fine http://www.lnt.org/

I have to make a few assumptions here, and I may be off on the wrong track, but if I am I know I will be told straight off. The Coach/Counselor comes in and sees whats going on, the first thing he should do is ask who the patrol leader is. What's that? They havent elected a patrol leader yet? They are here for Wood Badge and to expperience the complete package, they have to elect a patrol leader. Coach then congratulates the patrol for electing their leader. He then asks the group what they should do first. The intention is to have the newly elected PL run the meeting, but the coach will make sugestions to draw everyone into the process. Coach helps them set priorities and has them talk about why they are in the course in the first place. He helps the patrol start planning a patrol flag, yell, and design a totem. Coach watches to see the members strengths and tries to draw each one out when their strengths come up. He thanks and praises each member as they contribute and gets patrol suport for every suggestions, esecially the weepy and shy ones. He thanks them for attending. When the initial meeting is over, the patrol leader has run it and all patrol members are talking to each other, they have priorities set, and they are used to praising each other. They are far from a fully functioning high performance team, but they have started the process with a lot of support, not direction from coach.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I have been debating since you posted whether to answer this on the forum or in private message. In case another troop has this same issue, I will post here. My son, who is now 18, working at one of the Council's Summer Camps as an assisitant Rangemaster (three years on the High School Rifle team)has a urinary stoma. He has to catheterize his stoma every 3-4 hours and sleep pat night with a drainage bag on. Every day he is supposed (!!!) to flush out his stoma with 180 CCs of water (3 60CC syringes) He was born with epispadias, which is a form of extrophy. He never could control his bladder as he flat didnt have the muscles to hold the urine in. He has had many major operations. While he was a very young scout, he had his ureters transplanted from his bladder to his colon so he would defecate urine and stool at the same time. This kept him dry, but it also meant if he laughed loud or was startled, an "accident" was likely. He had frequent kidney infections as well. When he got "old enough" he got his current set-up. The surgeon took the ureters off his colon and put them back on his bladder. Then the appendix was taken and placed on the bladder and brought out to the lower abdominal wall, just below his belt line. Normally he was a gauze patch over it. He was a patrol leader for the 2001 National Jamboree and I was also there as an ASM for another troop. He had one foor locker for himself and another for his medical suplies. His time at camp is interesting too, catheters and urinary bags are hard to explain at 18, heck even at 14, but he does well. He has never had a problem with the other boys, he takes a "this is me" attitude and its accepted. it was tough when he defecated urine and stool, as he just couldnt go "up to a tree" he had constant diarrhea. Its better with the catheter, at least he can go off into the woods like "normal kids". Did I mention he is an Eagle Scout with a silver (highest you can get)palm? If your scout would benefit from talking to him, Private message me, it can be arranged.

Guess what, the dogs are off to the races, I have two, two mind you references that say at the 1896 Olympics, the first of the modern era, the winners got Silver medals with Gold awarded for second. http://www.didyouknow.cd/sport/olympics.htm http://203.10.106.20/sydney2000games/files/modules/63BF7DF2-4224-4A35-AF03B3B732AEEAF2/Olympic_victory_medals.pdf Somewhere some time silver was ranked over gold

You know, a Board of Review doesnt have to be about rank advancement, it can be held for a variety of reasons. It may not be a bad idea to hold another Board of Review with this scout and ask where he was. He may have a very legitimate reason, or he may not. If he does, you will feel better, and if he doesnt, well, at least he knows he is being watched. If he has a good reason, he still knows he is being watched. Note though his rank cant be revoked, but his performance in his position of responsibility can always be discussed, as long as its in the apropriate forum.

If an entity cant stand competition, then they dont deserve to exist. Its the fire of competition that tempers an organization.

After spending $400 on a kilt, I know what I will be wearing under it, and as far as it lasting a lifetime, once Mrs GreyEagle gets wind of what I paid for it, wearing it once will constitute MY lifetime.

lets see FOG, what are we disputing? We KNOW the order of palms is Bronze, Gold and Silver with silver being the highest. We KNOW that the Venturing awards contain a Gold and SIlver with Silver the highest. I say it comes from Roman times, you say you refuted it, I didnt see that in any of your postings, but go ahead beleive you did. How does a comment about trivia from ancient Rome get on par with the length of time merit badge's can be worked on?

FOG, lets try to keep this in perspective. I offred an explanation as to why Eagle palms go bronze, gold, silver and Venture awards go gold then silver with silver being the highest. I have no desire to disparage any "gold star" mother or debase any military or other award that is gold in color and/or composition. I remember reading somewhere placing Silver above Gold started in the Roman Army. Can the dogs be put to sleep, or at least to rest?

FOG, thank you for pointitng out that the Silver Star is not the highest award possible, I didnt think my post implied it was, but if I left that impresion I apologize. I did say the military has a Silver Star award, it does not have a Gold Star award, the awards higher than the Silver Star dont mention color/material at all. My reason for the post was to explain why in the BSA silver is placed above gold.