OldGreyEagle

I didnt say you said it was a hoot, it was my term. So if nobody got taped, why did you run away? If nothing "bad happened, why did you flee? And if nobody got taped, why did the perpetrators all get reprimanded? And when the victims come back to camp, what happens to them? And they are comming back to camp alone, right, the Buddy system is suspended for the hunt right? And when one of the scouts gets lost, trips and breaks or sprains and ankle, and no one knows where they are, its all another huge hoot, right? Can you see why I abhor this whole concept?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Tamegonit I take it your patrol leader tends to be telling patrol members what to do most of the time, does he ever ask for suggestions? Does he ever discuss the goals of the outing? And lastly, how does this style of leadership sit with the rest of the patrol? Does he have your loyalty? do you guys like him? Let us know

JB, This may come down to a case of regional differences, and I have hesitated to answer because I dont want to give away any more bad ideas then are out there already, but if my explanation helps save anyone from being a victim, then it may be worth the risk. To me, when someone says "Snipe Hunt", this is what it means: The people "in the know" start talking about maybe doing a Snipe Hunt later in the day, maybe even at night. The uninitiated want to know more about "Snipe", they are told Snipes are small flightless birds that often follow a trail and the best way to catch them is with a bag (in my day it was a burlap bag, geez I am old)stretched over the Snipe Trail. The person holding the bag had to be strong because the Snipe is very strong and vicious for its size. Once the bird runs into the bag, you tie it off and have it. Eventually the "victims" are assigned the bag holders job. They are placed along "Snipe trails" and told to stay there no matter what, they cant chicken out, leaving their post is a sign of cowardice, they would be letting patrol/troop/humanity down if they leave etc. With great resolve the catcher/victims are left to their post. Now, the pranksters can play the next part different ways, here is two. Number 1 is to leave the Snipe catchers alone, in the woods or field until the catchers get bored and come back to camp, of course the last guy back is the object of scorn and ridicule because he was SO stupid and stayed out for SO long. HAHA great fun. Next is to tell the catchers there will be a Snipe Drive to push the birds to them. Great noise is then made after the catchers are left alone. Usually the drive noise will continue and then one or more of the "drivers" will have an encounter with the Snipe, usually with drastic consequences. The Catchers will be led to beleive Snipe have either maimed or killed one or more of the drivers or the drivers have been injured in some other way. Maybe other animals will be brought into the mix, a wayward bear, rabid raccoon, etc. The Catcher is left on his own to decide what to do. Then when the terrified catchers make it back to camp, they are again the object of scorn because they were SO stupid to think it was all real. There are many variations, but to me when you say "Snipe Hunt", it means to me you are setting someone up to either leave alone all night in the woods with no gear, or try to terrify him out of his wits. Either way, the victim will then be taunted with how stupid they are. Now, if you have a "kinder, gentler snipe hunt", I would like to hear about it. BTW, JB one of your experiences is a classic reason "hazing" or snipe hunting is not allowed in Boy Scouts. You said older scouts came back to "duct tape" you. But you were strong and able to get way. What about those, if any, who didnt get away. Where they bound with duct tape? Where they taped up to the point they couldnt walk, couldnt move, felt powerless and rage at their attackers? What was the point of the duct taping? Was it the older scouts way of telling the younger ones we are stronger than you and you had better do what we say? (fine directing style of leadership huh Ed?) Tell us more about Duct taping scouts, that must be a real hoot

I dont see in the other stories where a young scout will be left alone in the dark while "pranksters" make him think he is in physical danger. If thats fun, count me out. As the saying goes its all fun until someone loses an eye, or something like that.

Howdy, what rank are you?

Do you see a reason for love, for courage, for patriotism, for service to the community? There are many things that some people can see no use for, but others embrace those ideas fully. Can Deism be like that?

bsat4jb, I am sure the regulars knew this was comming and seems like FOG has beat me to the punch, but I do have a different take on it. If you love taking young scouts snipe hunting then I guess you think humiliation is ok as long as it isnt you. Snipe hunts have no place in scouting, constitutes hazing and continuing to perpertrate such actions is as unscoutlike as you can be. Having fun at the expense of anoher's dignity is as depraved and twisted as can be.

Isnt Breyer an Eagle scout?

Back in 1984 I think it was I voted for Andersen, Reagan was a shoo in in the state I was living in, and if Andersen got some percentage of the popular vote he qualified for matching federal dollars. Looks like this upcomming election will be another time to look for alternates, Bush II is looking more and more unpresidential.

Hops, can you send me your plans? You may have won in a long shot, ours sank like a lead shot

I have a quilt my mother made me, its a square pattern with a fleur de lis quilted in the center of each square. In the center of each Fleur de lis is a patch of an event, or a rank , or a meritbadge, or a troop or pack number It is one of my cherished possesions. I am sure your scoutmaster will love his as well

Mom, where are you located? You can private Message me if you wish. One Crew in our Council just hosted 6 other crews in a Cardboard Boat Regatta, it was incredible, some of the boats actually floated. Others, such as ours, did not, but it was a great day. BTW, all attending crews were Co Ed, talk about mainting "discipline Yikes!

Ok Ed, there is nothing "wrong" with a SPL or PL telling a scout what to do. A steady diet of it though will probably keep a troop down to the 10-15 member size as most kids get enough bossing around in other venues of their life. If I joined a group and was promised I would be able to help the group set its agenda amd plan its activities and be a member of a team and all I did was get bossed around, I would quickly vote with my feet and get the heck out of there

Ed, are you talking in general, or in the Boy Scout Program, that may be the difference. You drive home from the grocery store loaded down with provisions for the week, you come in the house, and let your sons know there is a car of food that needs to get put away. You are directing, telling, getting the job done, whatever you want to call it, no problem. On a Boy Scout trip, since the boys are in charge, no adult should be giving any directions excpet for the occasional ok boys, leave the rattlesnake alone or get away from the rim of the Grand Canyon. A common "fault" if you want to call it that, of shared leadership is that it takes time. Its so much easier, to me at least, to walk into a patrol camp site at 7:00am and tell Ed to get water, Bob to light the stove and start the bacon, ect. But if I do, no matter how innocently, I have subverted the whole program. The boys need to figure it out by themselves and adults only make sure no one is hurt, injured etc. Its hard to put your hands in your pocket, but always doing for them does them no good. Does that make sense?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Continuing on the theme, in the 1960's The Roman Catholic Church was solidly in the Democratic Party, leastways in my area it was, and it wasnt all JFK either. Better conditions for the working man, care for those in "need", all traits both Demos and Catholics embraced. Now, it appears the Democrats want nothing of any organized religion, or anything organized (insert Will Rogers Quote here) Not sure how the Democrats improve the lot of the woking man any more, they still want to take care of those in need, its just that they have so durn well expanded the definition of who is in "need" Anyway, like I have said before, Clowns to the Left of me, Jokers to the Right, here I am stuck in the middle with you. AND I am not so sure about YOU

Just as there is no "punishment" in Boy Scouts, there is no "telling" in Boy Scouts, it may just be semantics to you, but to me it matters. A comment such as "what do you think we should do with the loaded gear Mr SPL" is so much better. Before anyone blows a gasket, I do not include safety issues and other matters where quick action is necesssary. But is may be fun sometime to see how long a troop realizes the gear isnt getting unloaded and what they do about it. One a troop I knew had a camp out where the leaders didnt wake anybody up and never told anyone to start breakfast, around 10 am they woke up, literally and figuratively.

A straight question Merlyn, why are you an Atheist? Were your parents Atheists and "taught" it to you or were you raised in a religion and rejected it at some point? How do/did you come to the conclusion there is no Supreme Being?

Yo Dave, signed up to do Powderhorn this month, Sept 12-14 at Ockanickon and Sept 19-21 at Camp Minsi. And while we are on the subject, a Venturing Crew doesnt have to be High Adventure (Outdoors) oriented, Crews may have a Sea Scout, Religious Life, Arts & Hobbies, or Sports focus.

Well Tamegonit Arrowman, the honeymoon is over, there is no room in the Boy Scout Program for punishment.

Roster, good question, and I admit that if my straight son someday must risk his life for our country, I will want gay's taking the same risk. Now, as to the question if the US Military can operate with open gays in it. Thats a very good question. I dont know if anyone has the definitive answer to that question, but I can look at history. Blacks were in segregated in the military because the Armed Forces ability to conduct its business with intergrated troops was quesitoned, turns out there is no problem. Blacks were not allowed to be pilots, as they werent supposed to be "Capable" (read smart enough) the Tuskegee airmen proved that wrong Females were banned from many non-combat branches of the service because it was felt their presence would interfere with the military carrying out their functions, turns out the ladies did just fine. Females were banned from Combat operations because it was felt that their prescence would interfere with the military carrying out their functions, The ladies are now doing it. Females were once banned from Naval Ship duty because it was felt that their prescence would disrupt the ship form its duty, they now serve. And as has been recently shown, the US has a pretty good military, even with all these groups that "people" thought would interfere with the military performing its function. Is it possible openly gay people will be the next group assimilated to the Armed Forces and then we will wonder just what the fuss was all about anyway?

I love semantical fights, actually I dont think I do, but here we go again, buckle up your helmets and be sure the tray tables are locked in the upright positions. Although as much as I fly, I have never seen a tray table locked in the downright, or downleft position for that matter. Anyway, I digress, So Ed, if its a "fact" that homosexuality is "immoral" does that make the Episcapol Church immoral for having a Homosexual Bishop, does that make all who voted for the Gay bishop immoral? How could so many semmingly rightgeous people be so grievously wrong? Anyway, its just a thought

I struggled with the following statement for quite a awhile, no matter how i try to express it, it comes out quite crude and seemingly unscoutlike, yet I cant explain myself any better. If some of the more talented wordsmiths can fashion a better statement, I would drop this one in its favor; I have no problem with gay men and women serving in the Armed Forces, they have as much a right to die for their country as straight men and women.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Well, what about staggering the meetings? Have the Crew Meeting start after the Troop meeting, that way the Crew still interacts with the troop, and have their own meeting as well. A crew member can attedn the troop meeting and the crew or just the crew

I started a post with following quote, and I do again, "Out of the mouths of babes..." And Hops, I hope you realize I dont think of you as a baby, just as very young with a lot of peceptive skill. I think Hops is dead on, change the night of the Crew Meeting to another day would certainly help out the situation

Ed, It all depends on who said it, if it was the SPL, maybe its ok, if its the Scoutmaster or any other adults its dead wrong. Actually, in a well trained and lead troop the statement "lets get the gear unloaded" would be superfluos, as soon as the cars get there, everyone knows their job and does it. Well, ok, maybe thats just a fantasy, but one to work too.