OldGreyEagle

Then again ...No man is an island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the continent, a part of the main. If a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friend's or of thine own were: any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in mankind, and therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee....

Ed, I don't know how many prisons you frequent, hopefully few to none, but if you ever get a chance to "visit" (as in not assigned there) you may notice a white or yellow stripe on the floor in front of the cashiers window, inmates store, etc. I asked what the line was for, the answer, inmates are to keep their toes behind the line, necessitating them to lean awkwardly forward to conduct business at the window. This is supposed to reduce the number of inmates who try "funny business". Well, whether the inmate is told he/she may not have toes on or beyond the line, or that having toes on or beyond the line is prohibited, the results are the same. Anyone with toes on the line or beyond gets to spend the night in "the box" (OK, the last line I made up, but I loved Strother Martin)

Good one FOG, had to look that one up, sounds fine to me

Sha na na na, sha na na na na, Sha na na na, sha na na na na, Sha na na na, sha na na na na, Sha na na na, sha na na na na, Yip yip yip yip yip yip yip yip Mum mum mum mum mum mum Get a job Sha na na na, sha na na na na

So Fog, if you dont like cargo pants or any other sort of pant, what do you suggest, kilts???

If a scout is reverent, then attending Vespers isnt a question of manditory since coercement is not needed. As B-P once said "There is no teaching to compare with example." All leaders should attend Vespers as well. Now, it may be from time to time a scout will profess his faith does not condone group worship, if told that I would it accept it once and be sure to discuss with the scouts family what precepts their faith follows. I have had a few scouts say they were Wiccan but had no knowledge of the faith. At Powederhorn one of my fellow crew members said he was Wiccan and discussed it quite thoroughly. I would tell the troop they are expected to attend Vespers unless a valid excuse is accepted.

AArrghhhhh Arrrghhhh and Double AAArrrrgghhhh, I hate when I think I have the answer and I dont. According to the Advancement Committee Polcies and Procedures book page 30 "... If the board decides that the scout is not ready to advance (for a reason such as improper requirement signing amoung others) the candidate should be informed and told what he has not done satisfactorily, Most scouts accept the responsiility for not completing the requirements properly. The members of the board of review should specify what must be done to rework the candidates weakness and schdeule another board of review for him. A follow-up letter must be sent to the scout who is turned down for rank advncement confirming the agreements reached on the actions necessary for advancement..." So lets lose the suspended BOR thing, have the BOR and the scout work out a plan to have the scout do what he is supposed to do and a new BOR is then scheduled. (Note to self: No posting before morning coffee, tea, or at least until awake)

Interesting point Ed, according to the rules, once a item is signed off, its signed off, no retesting allowed, however, if you have conclusive proof the signing off was done without the scout demonstrating sufficient skill, well thats an issue. Rather than erasing the sign-off, why not have the scout and the one who signed off the requirement put together a demonsration of the skill in question to be presented to the troop. In putting together the presentation and in giving it, the skill in question will be mastered. Now, how to accomplish this? If during the Board of Review process it comes to light that a signoff occurred without sufficient skills mastery, suspend the Board of Review until the skills demonstration as described above is complete. I may be out on a limb here as far as official BSA policy goes, but I dont know of any requirement that says once a BOR is started it has to be finished in one session. The BOR is not retesting the scout, but assuring the skill is mastered. And if you think most of the above is merely semantics, you are right, I am trying to come up with a scenario that I could live with, I'd like to see others ideas as well. When we say a scout is trustworthy, I believe that extends to the BOR as well, at it wouldnot be trustworthy of the BOR to the scouts who have mastered their skills not to do "something" with those who don't know their stuff.

The Probelem isnt one that can be solved by changing the Board of Review Process. The Board of Review is not the place for a restest Period, end of discussion. Now, how do we fix things? Well, from the orginal post you said the problem was with patrol leaders signing off items the scout didnt really know. You can take a few different approaches. As FOG referred to in a post, part of the scouting program is accepting the consequences for their decisions, as it stands right now, those patrol leaders, or others who sign off requirements for a scout who doesnt know his stuff doesnt have to face any consequnces. So, now is the time. Have a skills brush up day, look at a scout's book and have him teach a signed off skill to another scout. If the scout cant teach the skill, go back to the person who signed off the skill, and have that person reteach the skill so the retaught scout can now teach. (follow that? I hope so) If you find yourself going back to the same person to reteach skills he/she signed off, its time to discuss how to improve either educational methods or the ethics of signing off items for scouts who dont know the skills. The answer is in going back to the people who are signing off items and changing their behavior. If someone continues to sign off items without regard to skill performance, suspend their ability to sign off items. OOh OOh here's a radical approach, it must be evident to the troop that the BOR process is a bear, ask the PLC how to fix it, they are living with the process as well and have memories of it, have them suggest a solution and have them enact it. They may review my suggesitons or have one of their own. Let them solve the problem. Its not the Board of Review's job to assure the scout "knows his stuff" its up to the program (Read PLC as assisted and supported by the Scoutmaster and Committee) to assure requirements are met.

Hey LV, we have backpacked the Pine Barrens and plan to go again on October 31 with the Venture Crew, we are gonna be looking for the Jersey Devil at midnight, it dont nuch better than that. Entry point Bastow

The Venture Crew of which I happily serve and contains such notable posters as Outdoor Thinker, has a Halloween Party scheduled at the Church that charters the Crew. Permission was given to have the party, but only after discussion as to whether or not the Church should be condoning such actvities which might encourage Devil Worship, Moral Deparavity, etc. I would like to think that members of the Crew can differentiate between the fantasy of a Halloween Party and the actual black arts. I would also think most Boy Scouts can make the connection, or perhaps in this case the disconnection that paint ball and laser tag are fun games, not actually tied to killing people. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

SPL 15, you are one wild and whacky guy, thats for sure. As far as the First Aid question, as I understand it, some of what you do for the first aid merit badge will count towards the Core First Aid Ranger Requirment but earning the First Aid merit badge will not satisfy the Venture Core Requirements. Next, hard as it will be, I promise I will keep Outdoor Thinker out of Louisiana so you don't have anything to fear.

Does anyone know where I could get a full length (head to toe) picture of Baden-Powell in about a 5x7 or 8x10 format?

OK, Myself and six other District collegues have completed our ticket items and the whole lot of us, (all seven) will be receiving our beads together prior to the Demeber District Roundtable. Is there a resource for planning a Beading Ceremony? Are there essential parts of Beading Ceremony? Any hints on planning the ceremony?

"Women win arguments because they cry and, for that, we have no defense." What number is "knowing and utilizing your resources" BTW for the record, the Young ladies of the crew dont cry to win arguments, at least not yet.

Pounder, the last two posts have been an Epiphany to me. First off, Outdoor Thinker is a member of the crew which I am delighted to be allowed to be part of. She has been awarded the first and thus far only Council Venture Youth Leadership award. She was indeed the Scoutcraft Director (thats what gave it away, her going to Camp School)at one of our Council's Summer Camp where she was the responsible "adult" on both the Wilderness Surival and Canoe Overnights each week for the camping season. She is a registered merit badge counselor in 8 merit badges and helped me earn the Scoutmasters meritbadge by brushing me up on my splicing skills. The Program Director is recruiting her to return as the Camp Commisioner for next year. Another thing that gave it away to me was the fact we got back from a Scout Reach Camporee, she and two other Crew members ran stations for advancement requirement. As she taught the merit badge class for First Aid all summer, she was a natural. She is one of the most active Crew Members we have, she vitually fights to have more back packing trips in the calendar and is as tough a hiker as I have seen. She want to camp out in the middle of the Poconos the weekend before Christmas. We also have another member of the crew, also female who is our crew president and the both of them would walk you into the ground, or at least match you step for step. Outdoor Thinker and our Crew President are the President and Vice President of the COuncil-wide Venture Organizaiton while a third female member of our crew is both secretary to the Crew and the Council organization. I am proud to know these young ladies. The second part of this post was going to be a blistering diatribe against you and SPL 15. However, in respect to scouting, this forum, and the Crew Members I will not post what I had written.

Packsaddle, I was looking for something from a female poster but you did fine. Once again, you can't wear khacki shirts with green loops. forget about it. If you all to wear a blue jean shirt and black pants, thats fine. You can design any uniform, or you can leave the uniform design alone for awhile its activities that define the crew not the uniform. Next, if you take girls (under 21) camping overnight, you had better have an adult female along (Over 21)

First, do NOT wear the khacki boy scout shirt and the green loops. Thats a no-no. If you dont want to buy the green shirt, the crew can come up iwht a uniform of its own, but it cant include the boyu scout uniform. Next, I want to be sure I understand, you say the "girls" just dig all you cool Boy Scout guys and thats the only reason why they want to join the Venture Crew and they will be pleased to just walk three steps behind you guys. The "men" of the crew will have a shake down campout to determine if you will let the girls in. Now, if thats true, I applaud you guys, but I have a feeling a few posters may have words for you.

The death penalty always confuses me, when we execute a murderer, what we are saying, as a society that the most heinous thing you can do is take away a persons life? everything they have and everything they are ever going to have.? That in society the taking of another's life is at the level that if you kill another, we will kill you. We are saying life is so precious, that if you deprive another of life, we as a society will deprive you of yours. (excused circumstances excepted, self defense, etc. ) So, what does that say about society?

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To avoid hijacking my own thread, I started this one. I am sorry if I insult any one but socialized medicine, goverment run healthcare or whatever you call it is nothing but an unmitigated disaster. We have the Veterans Administration, and I want testimonials on how the veterans in the group think about its level of care and service. We have Medicare, and I can personally tell you, as its my business to explain Medicare rules that the system couldnt be any more convoluted if they tried. Does any government enterprises work? The Post Office? If it was a model of efficiency, then Airborne, FEDEX, UPS and other carriers wouldnt exist. Can you say Amtrak? Is it still in business? What level of service does/did it provide? How many people here have had experience with a "county" hospital, did you like it? Compared to a for profit hospital? What are your experineces? I dont include the military as they are not expected to turn a profit. Sorry, there are a lot of things that could be improved in healthcare, but having the government run it is not one of them

I always wanted to do this, and now is as good a time as any. I would like any one who wishes to state their political position and make a case as to why its the best,what attracts you to it, why do you support its ideals? like I am a conservative because... Or I am a Democrat because... Oh, an the rules thing, you cant say your position is best because some other one sucks. No I am a liberal because conservatives are idiots or I am a conservative because liberals are idiots. Support your view without detracting from the opposing side. Can it be done? We will see

Fog, forgive me, I am in a fog, what are we arguing about again, I agree with your last post, and I thought we were at odds, help me out

FOG, Ollie North raised his right hand and swore to tell the truth and did not. He did this on TV to the Congress and to the American public. This is actually exactly what Clinton did. Although Clinton is still rated much worse in my mind than North, but North still lied. Both disgraced themselves. I am not sure if I can hit all your points, Lincoln did what he had to to preserve the Union. As far as he other points you have, I have no problem with a Special Ops soldier doing what needs to be done, to intelligience officers doing what they need to do. I do question if what was going on in the basement of the White HOuse is on the level of waging the Civil War. And as far as making it ok to lie to Congress since "they" lie to use, well I dont know what to say. But if I personally followed the examples of our political leaders I certainly wouldnt be able to say the scout oath and law with any veracity. AT this point Ralph Nader is looking better and better, Pounder, You need to do a better job that dismissing OT's thought on LNT as providing a clean place to put expensive gear. Here's a thought, how about Boy Scouts being apolitical, and only advancing "Our" agenda?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Rooster, so there is no misunderstanding, Clinton proved himself to be slime. GW has proved himself to be a much better warrior than nation builder and he promised to do both. On the moral register. Clinton rates much worse than GW, but GW does not rate re-election either.