OldGreyEagle

Eagledad, I respect your love and passion for Boy Scouts, having said that, I am going to use your post as an example, and most likely not the way you intended. Read Eagledads post about a situation that he knows of. The Parents are married and happy, going to college, ready to graduate, a rather jovial turn out. Teens reading this should know this is atypical. Its not nomrally like the idyllic setting Eagledad tell about. Yes, it does happen, but thats not the norm. And then we talk about what happens, when reality sets in in 8-7 months. Most of the scouts I know dont have a clue what they are doing in a month let alone six months from now. Lets see, the couple gets married, neither works so they go on welfare and get foodstamps. Gee, as a kid I see a boy and a girl sharing an apartment with no adults telling them what to do. They work assorted part time jobs and maybe have a party or two. Yeah, these two are really in a bad spot. By the time the bad times happen, the example has been set and how many other couples are in the same spot? Or they dont get married. The father gets upset with the mother, and grandmother to be, hwo dare they tell him what he has to do. He tells them to "stuff" it and leaves the relationship, legally tied, but not emotionally. Real good set up for the child. Yes, I know many unwed teen age parents. Why do they do what they do? Because after all "everybody does" well no they don't and if they do they are not going to be celebrated as overcomming an obstacle they placed in front of themsleves

Both soon to be parents knew what they were doing was wrong, and they went ahead and now they are "caught" with an innocent life in the mix. I said I dont want to abandon the boy, I also don't want this kid a role model hanging around the troop. He is going to need support, but lets not make him such a center of attention that other boys decide to get girls pregnant so they can enjoy the limelight and get all this attention. I am not sure the support this new family will need should come from the troop. Individuals can help where they wish, but it should not look like the troop is helping. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I feel compelled to write this, if the Scout is the acknowledged father, then his advancement stops where it is, it would be hard to say he lives the Scout Oath and Law while an unwed father. We traveled over similar round with the Unwed mother. If there are no consequences then we imply its ok to get girls pregnant, it wont halt your advancement. I am not sure I would want him around meetings, the other kids will know, at least some and they will tell the others and if nothing changes, then again, we imply its ok to make babies while a scout. its a mess, and I dont want to abandon the boy, but I dont think making hin a cause celebere is wise either

Back from Gettysburg, wonderful weather, just great. Did the in town historic hike, had a good lunch in town and did the visitor center. Wonderful dinner back at camp, and made Black Forrect Birthday Concoction in a DO, Chocolate cake mix and cherry pie filling Gettyburg is always a great place. Now, I know not everyone can get to Gettysburg in 2 hours, but what made this trip special is we had Outdoor Thinker's brother with us, Civilwar Thinker, he knew all about just about everything. He had a lot to tell us and we let him. He is a 14 year old Civil War nut. Inentory your crew, see if you have a local expert on a nearby attraction. Let them lead things, everyone has a good time, I know we did

Things I leaned at Summer Camp Be very careful of who you give the Council's phone number to , you never know how it will be used Summer Camp operations is a real eye opening experience when your son is on staff and sometimes too much knowledge IS a bad thing Going to the Camp to bring props for skits every 2 days or so doesnt take that much gas Having two Crew members on Camp Staff can be exhilerating and nerve wracking at the same time Its a lot more fun talking about roasting a pig over an open fire than actually doing it. When the Princess of Precipitation is on Camp Staff dont expect a lot of dry days. An 19 year old female ASM can ride in my car in the front seat, a 19 year old female Venture Crew member cannot. If you want to make a birthday special, show up for dinner during a monsoonish thunderstorm that wipes out the power in the camp and wear a Darth Vader outfit, complete with mask, cape and light saber (and dont forget, DV's is red, not blue) Camp Staffers that major in Philosophy and Forensics will get the I Kant jokes and will appreciate the statment that scouts taking the existentialism merit badge should not look into the soul of their tentmate for answers, even if no one else does. A cow that's lashed together in scout craft can look more like a moose than bovine. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

From time to time this section of the Forum and in others gets quesitons about what does your crew do, well, what if this stands as a continuing thread, Crews post your activities here and afterwards give us a review. Then when people look through for ideas, they can be in one thread. This week end the Crew is going to Gettysburg, many of us have been there before but never have done the historic downtown hike. Will let you know how it goes.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Awwww, thank you Campaholic, hey Dan, ain't she an Angel?

NJCubScouter The song "Try to Remember" is from the musical "The Fantasticks" Try to remember the kind of September When life was slow and oh, so mellow. Try to remember the kind of September When grass was green and grain was yellow. Try to remember the kind of September When you were a tender and callow fellow. Try to remember, and if you remember, Then follow... Try to remember when life was so tender That no one wept except the willow. Try to remember when life was so tender That dreams were kept beside your pillow. Try to remember when life was so tender That love was an ember about to billow. Try to remember, and if you remember, Then follow... Deep in December, it's nice to remember, Altho' you know that snow will follow. Deep in December, it's nice to remember, Without a hurt the heart is hollow. Deep in December, it's nice to remember The fire of September that made us mellow. Deep in December our hearts should remember, And follow... Anyway, so my examples were a burst, I can accept that. So are we saying to be a good leader, one must be a good follower, and it takes ctitical thinking ability to know when to lead and when to follow?

I have said many times that I don't consider a blood drive an Eagle project. This is why, lets consider two scouts one decides to plant 20 trees, 15 bushes and rebuild a portion of a stream bank. The other scout does a blood drive. Both scouts have pre-work to do. One has to arrange for the Blood Mobile to come, the other has to figure out what trees and bushes to plant, how far apart are the trees and bushes and the soil compatible, and how much money it will take to buy them or get them donated from a nursery or get money somehow. Also an organization must be found to "sponsor" the project, whether a Conservancy or Park District. Both scouts have to line up workers and the blood drive scout may line up volunteers to give blood or furnishes publicity to get donors. On the day of the event the blood bank people will set up themselves, they have this down to a science. The scout may meet and greet people and coordinate the cookies and drinks, but thats about it. The actual procedure and screening of the donors is set by medical policy. Then the blood bank people pack up and leave, again, they have it down to a science. On the day of the tree event, the scout has to arrange to have the plants delievered, have people to plant them, assure the tools are there, decide where to plant, how to plant, etc. He directs the planting, and stream rebuilding and when anybody has a quesiton on what to do next, the scout answers. Cant say I've seen that in a blood drive. Thats a thumbnail sketch. Now, if your council allows blood drives, go for it, but this is why I have reservations on it

Adam was the first man, Eve she was a mother Cain was a wicked man because he slew his brother Samson was a strong man, Noah built the Ark Jonah was a fisherman got swallered by a shark Got a melody for that LV? Added verse to the Birdie song: With a wing on the left and a wing on the right and a wing in the middle this birdies not right Mutation Mutation the other birdies cry

Lets see, the Crew without the ladies, hmmmmmmm Ok, it would not be the same, the Council wouldnt have had a Rendezvous, it wouldnt have the VEB (COuncil wide Venture YOuth organizaiton) and it wouldnt have Outdoor Thinker as the president and Campaholic as the Vice president in the VEB All in all Venturing in the Council would definitely have a much different face without you two, a face not near as good as it is now. On further review, lets get rid of the boys, except for YoungSpikedEagle of course Along came Eve with a basket of fruit, Adam winked at her and though she was mighty cute So she picked up some apples and they each had one And ever since then the trouble's begun

Hey Hey Hey Hey now, The Crew often asks me to sing solo, so low they cant hear me. The Crew asked if I could sing "like I was far far away", I lowered my volume and they said, "like no Mr GE, like we want you to sing, like far far away from us" I suscribe to the philosophy that gusto and volume will mask any lack of vocal talent, others seem to disagree. AND, If they think my singing is bad, ask them about my snoring ability, its legendary. When they finished with the firmament they started on the sky They hung it overhead and they left it there to dry They studded it with stars made of pretty angel's eyes To give us a little light when the moon forgot to rise (and Angel Face has the best eyes)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Pharoah's daughter Miriam, walking by the Nile Found the infant Moses playing with a crocodile. She took him home to Father, said she'd found him on the shore And Pharoah slyly winked and said "I've heard that one before" Moses was a Yiddish lad, went sailing in a skiff Along came Pharoah's daughter and gave the boat a lift She took him to the palace and she fed him awful grand Then he led the whole caboodle out into the Promised Land

I know Bobby Knight has been a raspscallion ever since he coached at Army. Custer graduated at the bottom of his Westpoint class and was courtmartialed for going AWOL. Patton defined the term "full of himself". Dont think any of them were a good follower The rest I am not sure of, I said I may be getting in over my head, and may be I am. I solicit further comments from anybody who knows more about these people

I may be getting in over my head here, but as I remember history, our country has had a few leaders who didn't follow directions well and was associated with at least one from outside this country. The first one I thought of was Gen. George Patton. A superb general and his men, by most accounts loved him, but Ike sure had his hands full trying to "control" him. Ike had similar problems with the English General Montgomery, his men loved Montie, but Montie had a thing for authority, he didnt like being told what to do, just like Patton. Then in the Korean War (or police action if you prefer) President Truman had a run in with MacArthur. Seems Mac wanted it one way and the commander in chief another. And Mac was sent packing because he wasnt a follower. If we go back to the "wild west" days one comes across the exploits of General George Armstrong Custer. Now here is a guy with whom the "uniform police" would have had a field day with. He never wore a uniform he didnt think he could embellish. And I think he had problems taking direction as well. Something about staying put, dont split your forces et al. (hey DSTEELE more latin) Now, these are all in the past and military, to move to the present day I cite Jimmy Johnson, he of the hair that wouldnt move if a Hurricaine was comming through. He had what might be termed a fairly sucessful run as coach of the Dallas Cowboys he didnt and doesnt take direction well either. Bill Pacells, current coach of the Cowboys may define the term iconoclast, he dont take nuttin' from nobody either, yet the renown free spirit Keyshawn Johnson says Parcells is the best coach he ever played for. Mike Holmgren, late of the Green Bay Packers and now of the Seattle Seahawks reached the Super Bowl in Green Bay, but didnt like the fact he has to share the lime light with Ron Wolfe. He went to Seattle where he could have all the power. And finally, in college basketball, the term Icon has to immediatley have am image of Bobby Knight flash across your brain. He is one of the most successful coaches of the modern era, he is able to get more out of the talent he has than most anyone else. I heard a saying, "he can beat you with his, and beat you with yours". Bobby never took any direction that he didnt want to. Yet again, most of his players love him. My conclusion? its best to learn to follow, as most of us wont ever reach the elevated status of the people mentioned above, but there are many examples of superb leaders who dont have sparkling records of following. But then, are we discussing history and sport or the BSA program, I am confused.

The preceeding argument between Outdoor Thinker and Campaholic was a test, it was only a test. Had it been real, Evmori and Bob White or Rooster7 and NJCubscouter would have been at each others throats. I repeat it was only a test, please resume posting your favorite songs, We now return you to the topic of this thread: God made Satan, Satan made sin, God made a hot place to put Satan in. Satan didn't like it so he said he wouldn't stay, He's been acting like the devil ever since that day. (ya know, an all male Venture Crew doesnt look so bad right about now)

As far as the merit badge sash slipping off the shoulder goes, some scouts in the troop undo their epaulets and then button the sash down and they know the sash doesnt come off, I dont know how proper it is.

Shadrak, Meshak, and Abednego Wouldn't obey the king, so they had to go, King put 'em in a furnace, to burn 'em up like chaff, But theyhad asbestos b.v.d.'s and gave the king a laugh.

Jonah was an immigrant, so goes the Bible tale; He took a steerage passage on a trans-Atlantic whale. But Jonah didn't like it, though the service was the best. So he pressed a little button and the whale did the rest

Daniel was a little boy who disobeyed the king And the king said he wouldnt stand for any such a thing So he through Daniel in with the Lions beneath, but Daniel was a dentist and he pulled the lions teeth

And you'll hear some bible stories that you never heard before The earth was built in ten days and finished on the eleventh And that was such a shame cause the contract said the seventh But the foreman got lazy and the plumbing didnt work so to get the thing delievered they just filled it up with dirt Young Folks Old Folks everybody come, to the Boy Scout SUnday school and have a lot of fun, place your backpacks, SLeeping bags and canteens at the door, and you'll hear some bible stories that youve never heard before (the chorus I learned) Adam was the first man and Eve was his spouse They lived together in a cozy garden house, Everything was fine till the first son came, then they moved out to the suburbs and started raising Cain Chours: BTW I know 10 more vereses(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Let me try this one more time, I think the following quote is what got this thread rolling, or at least is the reason for this whole argument, A poster wrote "...To be a good leader you must 1st learn to follow. If you can't follow or won't then you can't expect people to follow you..." What I think Bob White is saying, and of course Bob, I am only trying to help, tell me where I am wrong, is that leadership training doesnt have to wait until the scout is a good follower you can train a person to lead and follow at the same time, completion of "following school" is not a prerequisite for "leadership school"

How well I know that tune. Its one thing to get the kids pumped over Venturing because its "youth led", then its tough to make it happen. Usually its a case of independence shock, we tell the youth they are in charge and then BAM they actually are. Quite a concept. Have the Crew Vice President of Program develop an activities list, such things as hiking, camping, climbing, backpacking, swimming, canoeing, just about anything and distrubute them at a meeting, Have the youth fill it out and turn back in with out discussion. Have plenty of blank space for ideas the youth have. Have the Crew Officers review the findings and start scheduling the events. DOnt let them say we outta go to Gettysburg this year, ask them when? Have them set a date ask who will get the campsites reserved, who wil buy food, etc. Its not the advisors job to do any of this, but just ask questions until its assigned. Always ask the president and have he/she assign/get volunteers for it. Do this for every event. DOnt let a great idea get kicked around for weeks, book it. Better yet have the Crew develop a check list for a trip, who gets campsite, food, tour permit if required. The president goes down the list and completes it and no adult need say anything, thats success, and its not hard, well maybe a little to break the inertia, but it does speed up. I made mention of a trip our crew took to Cabelas in Hamburg PA, it came about because we have a new member who when asked what he wanted to do reply go to Cabelas and not worry when I have to leave, BAM, A day at Cabela's scheduled and now done. We all had fun the the new guy knows he can impact the activites, they all can.

I have tried to stay out of this one because until recently I wasnt sure I understood the question. I beleive a good leader must be a good follower. Everyone has a boss, in the military there is always someone who outranks you. Even the Pentagon's Chief of Staff has a boss, the president, who has roughly 260 million bosses. As adult scouters we train the boys to have charactor, citizenship and to improve their physical fitness. To be a good citizen one must at times follow and other times lead. Its with charactor development the scout learns when its a good time to lead and when its appropriate to follow. Learning to lead and follow are not mutually exclusive. A brand new scout is ready to learn how to lead and how to follow. You dont have to complete one before you start on the other. Much has been made of the military boot camp model, where the emphasis is on following, but even in this environment, each new group of recruits will have a squad leader, choosen from within the group. Seems like the military like to train leaders even as that leader is learning to follow.

There are so many to choose from Green Grow the Rushes Ho Johhny Verbeck Allouetta She'll be comming around the mountain My Darling CLemintine (with 5 non standard verses, all scout ok) Someone's in the Kitchen with Dinah oh the list can go on and on and as Outdoor Thinker will tell you, I can do all of these without referencing a source and at the drop of a hat, much to her and other crew members chagrin I really liked reciting the Ballad of William Sycamore at a recent campfire, it had the kids entralled. BTW ::soft hummimg in the background:: ...Sing her glories, live her idylls hold her memories dear, give a cheer that all may hear it, Hail oh Hail Minsi...(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)