OldGreyEagle

Dan, how would you evaluate the historian's performance? For each point I have questions on how you would measure performace and then I have the scout evaluate himself, how would you do it? How would you explain to the scout what is acceptable or not?

I gotta ask why isnt this an appropriate forum for such a discussion ?

Fog, I was wrong about you, Dante's 6th level, at the very least

FOG, I thought an astute man of the world like you would recognize dialogue from The Godfather and Godfather II. Sorry to have confused you

thank you Dan, here goes Gather pictures and facts about past troop activites. How many pictures is adequate? The cars leaving the lot? One of the morning assembly? Does the scout feel he has done what he should, where does he think he can improve What facts are needed? How many scouts and leaders went? Are names necessary? Somewhere between "went to Gettysburg, it was ok" and a Ken Burns Documentary is what should be expected Does the scout feel he has done what he should, where does he think he can improve Take care of troop trophies, ribbons, ... Aer they in a case? Doey they need to be polished? Case cleaned? What is meant by "take care"? Shoved in a shoebox under his bed or arranged in a display caae in the CO? Does the scout feel he has done what he should, where does he think he can improve (See a trend?) Keep information about former members. How far back? Address? Phone? E-Mail? Picture? Sets a good example. Does the scout harrass others, is he on time, gives repsect, generally acts scout like Enthusiastically wears the Scout Uniform. Yikes, how many components does he wear? All the time? Lives by the Scout Oath and Law. What are the troops observations, other scouts, his parents, his own Thats what I mean, have some minimal standards, and if they aren't met, why not? What are the reason? Do they sound plausible? How can the scout improve, does he need help? They are starting points, not absolutes

Why FOG you ol rapscallion you, completely let my comment about you antagonizing the forum go, well thats ok, With best Don Correlone voice "And I refused -- to be a fool -- dancing on the string, held by all those -- bigshots. I don't apologize -- that's my life" SENATOR GEARY: All right, all right -- some people have to play little games. You play yours Anyway, read Playboy? Gosh you must be older than I am, thats what cables for!

Dan, could you post such a Job Description and I'll explain what I mean by using it as an example of what I mean.

By Jove, I think he has it, Now, once again, the primary precipitation in Portugal pelts principally upon the plateau... I have no problem with troops defining what succesfully defines completion of a POR and provides aid, support and critisim along the way. Lets say a scout bridges on his 11 birthday. On his 12th birthday he acheives First Class, (sorry FOG, he wasnt rushed through he attended every meeting and outing and acutally knows his stuff) at 12 years, six months, (ok he slowed down a little, but work with me) he makes Star. And on his 13th birthday, he makes Life. He goes to all the meeting, is a real sparkplug and a joy to be around. And on his 14th birthday he makes Eagle. Such proud parents, such a great kid, and after the next meeting following his Eagle Court of Honor, he is never seen again. Well, he is seen, just not at Scout meeitngs and activties. Now, another scout bridges with him on the same night, takes him longer to get to first class, actually he does it on his 13th birthday, but band and wrestling get in the way at times. He serves as a qurtermaster for 4 months as a First Class scout quite well, then band starts and he does merit badges here and there but really isnt seen much until his 14th birthday when he acheives Star. He becomes a patrol leader and does a great job for 6 months and almost (!) drops out of sight, surfacing on his 16th birthday with all requirements done for Life. and as you may expect, he finally completes the Eagle requiements when he is 17 years, 364 days and 15 hours old. (Includes a bang up Eagle project and 6 months as the finest instructor the troop ever had) Tell me, which of the two scouts is the better Eagle?

FOG, you probably have heard this before, but you are wrong, dead wrong First Class First Year is not intended to make advancement easy, show me where in the BSA literature is says that following first class first year is intended to make advancement easy, you cant because its not there. Hold on, wait a minute, why Mr Fog, you old rascal, you are just pushing buttons seeing if you can start a brew-ha-ha. Well you little dickens, you know better, you just love to bait some of us. Oh well, here I go again Laura, First Class First Year means the Troop is committed to providing a program so that the opportunity for a scout to advance to First class in a year is possible, not a certainty. This means a scout who attends activities will have an opportunity to do the shopping, cooking, orienteering, find way at nighting, first aiding knot tieing etc required to become first class. FCFY details a program to help the scout, but is in no way is meant to relax advancement requirements. If a scout bridges in February, does on one outing, starts Baseball and you dont see him till next september, chances are he wont make first class by the following February, but its becasue the scout wasnt there, not because opportunities werent presented. What happens if the scout doesnt make first class? well, what are some of the reasons, we tell our scouts at BOR time, nothing helps advancement like showing up, its up to them to do it, (well and sorta up to us to guide the boys to have a program that the kids want to attend, sorta a Yin and Yang thing)

the following was taken from this website listing the requirments for Life Scout http://usscouts.org/advance/boyscout/bsrank6.html Be active in your troop and patrol for at least 6 months as a Star Scout. While a Star Scout, serve actively 6 months in one or more of the positions of responsibility listed in requirement 5 for Star Scout (or carry out a Scoutmaster-assigned leadership project to help the troop). There are other requirements, but these are the ones I will focus on. Note it says be active for 6 months in troop and patrol, and the requirement for a POR is also 6 months. If the scout sucessfully completes his 6 months of POR, he has to have been active in his troop and patrol. If he then doesnt show up to another troop event in three months but does earn the required merit badges for life on his won, seeking outside the troop counselors, on what basis would you hold up his advancement when he asked for a Scoutmaster Conference during month 4, he did the requirements, what would you say?

I would try to find a younger scout, one who has been in the troop for 1-2 years and one my son knows and have my son ask the scout how he likes scouts. And I would walk away, leaving the two to talk. Then I would ask what was said, specifics arent important, the bottom line, will it be fun for your son or not, all the rest is just window dressing.

FOG, I know from time to time you have been known to accuse Bob White of living in Utopia with a fairyland troop, or something similar. I think you must live down about Dante's Level 5 from the way you describe your troop and its parentage. The Troop I serve takes the position a scout is responsible to decide what POR he wants and pursue it. As accounted earlier we make him aware of the positions at the BOR, and from time to time an adult will remind him he needs a POR, but the final selection is up to the scout. If a parent asks what about his POR, the stock answer is, has he (the scout) decided what he wants to do and what is he doing to attain it. Its works just like our response when a scout asks a quesiton regarding the troop, the response, I dont know, ask your Patrol Leader, Or SPL depending on the situation.

Reading over the last days posts, something struck me, I think a brick thrown by another poster... But moving on, according to the requirements for rank advancement to Star, Life and Eagle there is a time requirement for a scout to stay at that rank and a length of time that a scout has to "actively" serve in a positionm of responsibility (POR). In all three ranks these two limits match. I do not assume that four months after earning First Class, a scout will be ready for his Star Board of Review. That would mean he started on his POR the day after his Board of Review, that doesnt always happen in a troop. In the troop to which I belong, at the Board of Review we recount what posiitons are available and ask the scout to think about what he would want to do, he might love Patrol Leader, but he has to be elected, he might covet Assisitnat Senior Patrol Leader or Quartermaster, then he has to get appointed by the SPL so it may take awhile to obtain a position. Same thing with Life and then Eagle. A Scout may actviely serve his POR for six months and then enter an "unsettled time" where his attendance is spotty and then returns, actively serves for six months and then is spotty again. A Troop must lay out what is expected of the scout during the 4 (Star) and 6 (Life, Eagle) months of their POR and if they are doing any good to the scout, they will be sure the expectations are met but once those terms have been met, the troop has no authority to impose attendance requirements after that. I think some are thinking I am against performance standards while the scouts serve in their POR, I am not. I beleive the Troops have a responsibility to lay out exactly what needs to occur in that POR and have the review resources figured out. It doesnt have to be the SM, it would be best if it was 2 or more people. So, I guess the follow up question would be, how many months, on the average do your scouts remain at First Class, Star and Life? Is it closer to the minimum or is it varied? Now, I thought of this while I was typing, I come from a large troop, aprox 86, Maybe if we were much smaller I might understand wanting an attendance policy to have the numbers to have good meetings and activities.

Actually Oz, this might be a cultural thing but I would think in opposition to you. If a kid tells me he quit scouting because of other committments, spors, band, theatre,etc. and then said they loved those areas more than scouts, I would let them go after trying to see if a compromise could be worked out. If a scout quits "just because" and has no plans, then I would dig because then there may be a problem in the Troop that is being unsaid. Kids want to be invovled in something, but it has to be something they like, so I would want to find out why they dont like scouts

I may not have made myself clear, based on comments. I have said all along that I am against attendance policies. But I also asked the unanswered question "If a Scout attends enough meetings and activities to fulfill the stated requirements and fulfill his posiitons of responsibility, how can you justify adding on more requirements?" I expect a scout to honor his position of responsibility, a position he has been trained for and accepted knowing its duties and responsibilities. A position for which he is evaluated constantly and formally at least once, around the 3 month mark for Life and Eagle and 2 months for Star. If the scout isnt living up to expectations, then remediation needs to occur. But once the term is up, I don't see how the BSA program gives a troop authority to impose an attendance policy.

Eisely, A Troop does not have the authority of setting an attendance policy, this is under you can't add or subtract requirments. So, what do I think of a troop that does have such a policy, very little. If a Scout attends enough meetings and activities to fulfill the stated requirements and fulfill his posiitons of responsibility, how can you justify adding on more requirements?

Gee Eammonn, 65 people have read this and not as yet commented, looks like you arent alone in not wanting to talk about this subject. I view this like religion, if a scout asks a quesiton about sex or religion I would refer them to their parents/guardian or religious leader. I would love at times to do more, but the downside is so huge, its not worth the risk.

FOG, you make a great point! There have to be rules, guidelines, laws, edicts, tenets, etc. to keep things fair for all invovlved. As a national program, the Eagle Rank stands for something. People look at Eagle Scouts and know these are young men who accomplished something not many do. The naitonal rules are there to be sure those in Maine follow the same requirements as in Florida who follow the same requirements with Matua Warrior. Its the integrity of the program that makes the Eagle Scout rank what it is, a recognition of a special individual. Now, nowhere in the Naitonal literature does it mention anything about an attendance requirement, so some assume since there isn't any attendance mentioned, then it's ok for the Troop to set an attendance policy. I say no, there is no attendance policy on a Naitonal Level because none should exist. There are requirements for number of merit badges so I cant say in my troop its 15 for Eagle, and some one else can say, I want real men, you have to get 30 in my troop. Its says you must serve 6 months in a position of responsibility so I cant say, hey, 3 months is long enough and another one says, I only want committed scouts, 18 months is what they need in my troop for Eagle. The rules are there for consistancy, if there was suposed to be an attendance requirement there would be. Ok, some posters will say, the heck with you OGE, we/I want an attendance policy and you and your pointy headed friend can't do anything about it. And you would be correct. But to the unconvinced out there, consider this. Lets say Troop A requires 50 percent attendnace at troop meetings a year to stay a member. And Troop B requires 75 percent attendnace at troop meetings a year to stay a member. Now, consider Troop A meets every week through the year with only 4 meetings off. so the scout must attend 24 meetings. Troop B on the other hand only meets once a month with patrol meeting in between troop meetings. Those scouts only have to attend 18 meetings. Yet their ranks are the same, and if one of either troops make Eagle, its Eagle, not Eagle with special attendance requirments. Now, fine, if a scout cant meet the attendance requirements of a troop, he doesnt have to join. So, he shops for a troop with requirements he can meet. Yet he works for the same ranks as if he was in the other troop. Maybe there are'nt other troops in the are and he has to drop out, not because he doesnt like scouting, but because he met an artificial barrier that if he lived somewhere else, wouldnt have been a problem

Try to hang in there Pamaha, at times this forum appears to take pride in its myriad of complex and diverse opinions. And doesnt mind taking shots at each other well. As far as scout meeting attendance, I am against using attendance as a meter of a scouts interest in scouting or as a measure of how much scouting spirit a boy has. Now, in order to advance to First Class the boy HAS to attend some meetings and events to perform and have requirements signed off. To get to Star, Life and Eagle, the scout has to earn the required merit badges, serve in a posiiton of responsibility, (BTW, not only serve, but adequately serve as well, but thats another thread altogether) and live the scout oath and law, etc. There may be a scout who is very active, is a scout as well as football player or a bandmember, then wrestles in the winter and plays baseball in the spring. He is in line for a full athletic scholarship to a division I school and loves being a boy scout. Now, he doesnt make many meetings because of his schedule, not due to a lack in the program, but he still works with the troop. Maybe he is a Quartermaster, and during the week he maintains the equipment, assures its all in working order and keeps track of who took what home to clean. He might not make many outings, but the troops equipment is cared for, accounted for, and always in its place, because this scout makes sure of it. He maybe is an Assistant Senior Patrol Leader, he doesnt make many PLC meetings, but after the PLC meets, the Senior Patrol Leader emails him the meeting schedule with topics and our scout schedules all the instructors and outside speakers and confirms the attendance of those scheduled prior to the meetings and gets replacements if needed. Attendance is only a part of the overall picture of a scouts committment to scouting. Would I love 100% attendance? Certainly, would I accept much less than that from a scout who is a valuable asset to the troop through his time spent at non-meeting activities, yes again.

Another one of my favorites Moon on the Meadow bugs in our ears Smoke in our eyes, wetwood and tears Up on the meadow water somewhere We were the only one's there. Wild horses, Rushing dry lake and peak finding a love that everyone seeks hiking for rainbow, sunset, and stars just finding out who you are We will return here one lucky day our hearts will guide us they know the way people in citys don't understand faling in love with the land Moon on the meadow bugs in our ears Smoke in our eyes, wetwood and tears Up on the meadow water somewhere With you my friend I am their.

Oh Gosh CF, I always thought of you as a Muse, and you have to remember Outdoor Thinker, YoungSpiked Eagle, "Dave" and Daves dad, Mr T as well as myself have attended multiple boy scout outings, and with OT and YSE on summercamp staff year you didnt have a chance. here is the Cat Came Back Lyrics Old Mister Johnson had troubles of his own He had a yellow cat which wouldn't leave its home; He tried and he tried to give the cat away, He gave it to a man goin' far, far away. But the cat came back the very next day, The cat came back, we thought he was a goner But the cat came back; it just couldn't stay away. Away, away, yea, yea, yea The man around the corner swore he'd kill the cat on sight, He loaded up his shotgun with nails and dynamite; He waited and he waited for the cat to come around, Ninety seven pieces of the man is all they found. CHORUS He gave it to a little boy with a dollar note, Told him for to take it up the river in a boat; They tied a rope around its neck, it must have weighed a pound Now they drag the river for a little boy that's drowned. CHORUS He gave it to a man going up in a balloon, He told him for to take it to the man in the moon; The balloon came down about ninety miles away, Where he is now, well I dare not say. CHORUS He gave it to a man going way out West, Told him for to take it to the one he loved the best; First the train hit the curve, then it jumped the rail, Not a soul was left behind to tell the gruesome tale. CHORUS The cat it had some company one night out in the yard, Someone threw a boot-jack, and they threw it mighty hard; It caught the cat behind the ear, she thought it rather slight, When along came a brick-bat and knocked the cat out of sight CHORUS Away across the ocean they did send the cat at last, Vessel only out a day and making water fast; People all began to pray, the boat began to toss, A great big gust of wind came by and every soul was lost. CHORUS On a telegraph wire, sparrows sitting in a bunch, The cat was feeling hungry, thought she'd like 'em for a lunch; Climbing softly up the pole, and when she reached the top, Put her foot upon the electric wire, which tied her in a knot. CHORUS The cat was a possessor of a family of its own, With seven little kittens till there came a cyclone; Blew the houses all apart and tossed the cat around, The air was full of kittens, and not a one was ever found. CHORUS The atom bomb fell just the other day, The H-Bomb fell in the very same way; Russia went, England went, and then the U.S.A. The human race was finished without a chance to pray. CHORUS BTW: What did you think of "The Ballad of WIlliam Sycamore" and the St Crispins Speech from Shakespeare?

I am going to hyperbolize a little. I understand about the behavior in the troop, and the troop I enjoy has had its share of horror stories with disruptive behavior. But actually I wasn't talking about in meeting or activties behavior, I know how to deal with that. 1. Lets say scout/father stays in the troop, he apologizes and is a model citizen, until he gets girl number 2 pregnant. Now what do you do? 2. Police are called to the local high school and apprehend vandals "red handed" Amoungst the alleged perps is a scout from the troop, what do you do ? What a scout does outside of the troop has to have consequences, just what actions would you consider "bad enough"

Color me confused on the scout/father thread. I ask, just what DOES a scout have to do to get removed or be asked not to return to your troop?

I ran this one over a year ago, I think it plays well again, with some editing, and apologies to Steelers Wheel: Well, I dont know why I came here tonight, (I have a lot better things to do than checking this #$**& site every 10 minutes to see who is bashing who) I got the feeling that something aint right. (Can a scoutmaster really do that? And the Committe Chair, can he/she get away with that? Can you earn Bronze without being a Venture Crew Member?) Im so scared in case I fall off my chair, (then again my Eagle son DOES have the first aid merit badge, though I hope he wasn't waved though that one and actually knows his stuff) And Im wondering how Ill get down the stairs. (I could repell, but I dont have Climb on Safely) Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, Here I am, stuck in the middle with you. (With All my forum buddies, I mean after all we are here for the boys right?) Yes, Im stuck in the middle with you, And Im wondering what it is I should do. Its so hard to keep this smile from my face, (Can Bob White say anything that FOG wont pick apart?) Losing control, yeah, Im all over the place. (who do I agree with again? whats the topic of this thread again? How did we get on this subject again?) Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, Here I am, stuck in the middle with you. (With All my forum buddies, I mean after all we are here for the boys right?) Well, you started off with nothing, And youre proud that youre a self-made man. And your friends they all come crawlin, Slap you on the back and say, Please, please. (Like Please explain this BSA policy to me, how do you know so much about BSA when all you do is sit at your computer all day?) Trying to make some sense of it all, But I can see it makes no sense at all. (that would be members talking about why BSA does what they do regarding such topics as Uniforms, Websites, Swimming requirements, Joining Requirements, et al) Is it cool to go to sleep on the floor? (sure, sleep on the floor, but do you really need a sleeping pad? and what type is best and no females if the boys and old curmudgeonly scoutmaster want it that way) Well, I don't think I can take anymore. (well I know I say that every three days or so, but I always come back) Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, Here I am, stuck in the middle with you. (With All my forum buddies, I mean after all we are here for the boys right?) Well, you started out with nothing, And youre proud that youre a self-made man. And your friends they all come crawlin, Slap you on the back and say, Please, please. (see above) Yeah, I dont know why I came here tonight, I got the feeling that something aint right, Im so scared in case I fall off my chair, And Im wondering how Ill get down the stairs, Clowns to the left of me, jokers to the right, Here I am, stuck in the middle with you. (see above) Yes Im, stuck in the middle with you, Stuck in the middle with you, Here I am, stuck in the middle with you. (With All my forum buddies, I mean after all we are here for the boys right?) and if ewe think eye forgot hour homophonophobics, aisle let ewe no eye didnt Happy Thanksgiving all!!! (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

If the scout was found to be having sex with another boy, would your reaction be the same? I don't think the boy should be abandoned or scorned, I just dont see a huge role in the troop for him. I dont see the troop as the main support vehicle for this situation. I joined Scouts for many reasons, to support unwed parents was not one of them. If I choose I will provide support to unwed parents through my church in an unrelated to scouting activity.