OldGreyEagle

"Besides, I've yet to see anyone who actually looks good in the shorts and those dorky socks :-)" To bad you havent seen me thusly attired...

Do the Chartered Organizations accept responsibility for the actions of their approved leaders and contractually agree to pay any damages of law suits brought against the BSA because of sexual abuse?

Ah Thump, I thought an OA member was considered a youth until he was 21?

EagerLeader And I apologize if I offended you and you are being forthright. I am sure you can appreciate that over the years this forum has been the battleground for issues fueled by subterfuge and at time the sheer entertainment of some (which still occurs I beleive) When I was first asked to be a moderator for this forum I asked why did they think I was qualified and the response was something like they enjoyed my sense of Paranoia, Again if I am being paranoid, I apologize

One of the most difficult part of trading opinions on the internet is the fact you only know as much about a poster as he/she chooses to reveal. Over the years I have become more jaundiced over posters and what their agenda's are. Here we have a leader who didn't know there was a religious component in Scouts, even though the phrase "Duty to God" is in the Cub Scout promise. Then we are told the Cubmaster doesnt seem to care (hypothetically) and leaving would leave the den in the hands of a "incompetent leader". If I were a really suspicious person, I could think this thread is a setup to get scouters to say that in light of all the circumstacnes presented, it was ok to have an Atheist leader. Then, the argument could be if its ok to have an atheist leader sometimes, why not all the time. So, I use caution when reading threads of this sort. Are we being set up?

::effecting best Monty Python stance:: Now that's just silly !

Just my point, I think, Gandhi was the comsummate pacifist and Mother Theresa the comsummate missionary struggling to ease the burdens of poverty and now we add John Paul II, wouldnt it honor Gandhi more if no more wars were fought and the nations of the world worked to erradicate poverry and hunger with the same fervor they work to erradicate the enemy du jour?

TJ, just as an aside, what do you make of the results of the "homosexual" referendums of the 11 states during the last national election. I dont know the wording of each resolution, but didnt each one lose?

Hunt, thanks for putting succinctly what I have struggled to express

As the days go by after the passing of John Paul II, I find myself becomming more and more upset with world reaction. All over the globe, from GW to the muslim world John Paul II is being hailed as a brilliant man, a natural leader, a man of the people. If John Paul II was so highly regarded, I think it would have behooved those beating their breasts in agony at his passing to have listened and acted on his message while he was alive. I heard the Jewish and Muslim worlds were praying for him, why not honor him with a real peace? For all the countries that were at odds with him and what he said, why do their leaders extol his virtures now that he is dead rather than have done what he asked while he was alive. A week ago John Paul was alive, not in great shape mind you, but alive and no world leader talked about his wisdom, and now that he is dead, he is talked about with such fervor that you would have thought he righted all the worlds long ago. "Let us learn to show our friendship for a man when he is alive and not after he is dead" F. Scott Fitzgerald

The troop I serve allows for patrol shake up once a year in the fall when the next SPL is elected and the New Scout Patrol disbands. The patrol will stand for the year. Now, the PLC tried to come up with rules about each patrol having so many life, star, first class scouts but that didnt last for one term. We designate spots in the meeting room for people to go to when the signal is given. WHen the signal is given, the boys go to the spots and go where they want. They already know who they want to be with. The "less popular scouts" usually end up in one patrol where they are accepted and usually become one of the strongest patrols going. After the boys form their patrol they elect a patrol leader and choose a name and cheet et al. Usually we find the same kids stay together but a few will change. We have a general guideline of at least 8 and no more than 12 in a patrol with some discretion. Scouts who dont show up will get drafted into a patrol unless they send a proxy vote in writing.

I am not sure this is related, but what the heck. If you look at the general enrollment of the US Military Academy, you will find a disproportionate number of Eagle Scouts than in any other similarly sized Univerisity. I would expect such numbers of Eagle Scouts at West Point to be rivaled only by the student population at Annapolis and the Air Force Academy. When I was at the Jamboree the military prescence in the activities was quite impressive. Every branch of the service was there with recruitment information, fun activities, video recruitment clips, hats and other small trinket give aways, and recruitment inducements. After all, when are you going to get 36, 000 or so young men in the demographic you seek all in one place. Way back before I was OldGreyEagle, I was more like ShaggyHairedEagle and I paid through the nose for car insurance. My girlfriend, the same age as I did not pay half as much. And no, I didnt have any accidents, our driving records were virtually the same. Being it was the beginning of women's rights I asked why charging under 25 men higher insurance rates than women was not sex discrimination. The answer I got was because the insurance companies can absolutely prove that it is more expensive to insure a male under 25 than a female and it was that evidence that allowed them to "discriminate" based on sex. Now, for discussion sake, has not the BSA shown by their record to be a huge source of manpower to the US military and if there is a way for the branches of the military to endear themselves to the demographics they seek, wouldnot good business say they should do so? I have some agreement with the statement the military should be paying us to delivering as prime a crop of recruiting fodder to them for a week as you can imagine. Now, has any other group of similar demographics ever asked the military to help them put on a naitonal convention? Wouldnt the military have to refuse such an invitation before discrimination is alleged?

Hans has been discussed here before http://www.therant.us/staff/bios/hans_zeiger.htm He isnt exactly what I would call an independent journalist. He does have, of course, a right to his own opinions and a right to express them As does Prairie_Scouter

Aha Hunt, you may have stumbled on something, that of being reasonable and perhaps thats the best approach. Don't have a policy of parent's not being able to come to campouts, or only on some sort of rotating basis, but approach each event on its own merits. The troop I serve has been invited to the West Point Camporee this year. Two Eagle scout alums of the Troop are cadets. Per West Points rules only 25 scouts and 10 adults may attend. And as these parameters were being read last night, you can bet I was thinking about my comments that the troop never limits anything. Well, of course we will be limiting the attendance, we have to. MOST people are reasonable, and if the rules of each event are explained, I dont think you will have the stigma of a no parents on campouts troop. Sometimes you have to limit, but I hope those times the reasons are so obvious (like a West Point Camporee) that there is not much room for discussion.

How has the troop handled its equipment issues for the last year?

Actually, the troop has gone to Assateague a few times. I know those group sites, we make sure we reserve far ahead enough to be sure we have the space we need. Like I said, size has its logistical limitations, but we also have the resources to handle that. Now, I hope this isnt double talk, but we do limit participation on some outings, like a white water rafting trip where you have to be a "swimmer" according to BSA standards. Thats explained up front and adults also have to qualify each year. Adults who want to come and stay in camp and not go on the river tell us its nice to enjoy a campsite sans scouts. If you HAVE to limit participation, I guess you have to, we spent a weekend on the USS Massechusetts in Battle Ship bay. That was limited to the first whatevers who paid up. I can see doing that so I guess I will contradict myself. We do limit some outings, but as a general policy we dont

Here is a link to the Troop I serve website http://www.troop362.com/ Note, it says there are approx 70 scouts and 50 adults. It is the largest troop in the District, the second largest troop has approx 50 scouts and 40 adults. I know this because at a recent roundtable there was a discussion about recruiting adults. As the two largest troops we were looked to for hints on how to get more adults because as you get more adults, each job becomes easier causing more adults to want to join because they know they have plenty of support and because they know they wont get "stuck" doing it all. Both units had the same answer Number one, we dont limit adult participation (other than its against BSA policy) limiting parental involvement has to be the definitive description of shooting yourself in the foot in the youth organization dictionary. We dont care if you can only go on one trip a year, we want you and value you. That means men, women, any parent may accompany us on an outing. It has resulted in a few growing pains. A hunters cabin that once housed the troop now is only used for PLC training, a troop members house lot on a private lake that once contained all the troop is not large enough for us anymore. At summercamp, there is only one site that will contain us and one year we used that site and another complete one. However, for the e'spirit de corps our approach brings, for the teamwork and outright fun the adults have on outings and in guiding the troop far and away makes up for any logistical problems our size may present. An active program attracts active kids, active kids generally come from active families with active mothers and fathers, why in the world would you turn anybody active away? Special note, the leaders make sure that the adults have fun and leave the boys alone(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I have posted this link before, and doubtless will again, but I am not sure it will ever be as appropriate check out http://www.chsscout.net/rescenter/video/index.shtml#section4 Select the 4th choice, Address to Public at the 2:40 mark of the speech by B-P, he talks about his hope that the world wide scouting movement would establish a bond amoung all men and boys as to make war impossible. Its nice to know our youth and founder have the same aspirations(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

NJ, touche'

This actualy happened, Scouts Honor I was an assistant scoutmaster for the Jamboree in 2001. We spent the Saturday and Sunday proior to the opening Monday in Washington DC. One of our scouts lost his wallet in the Museum of Natural History on the Mall. I am not sure when he realized it was gone, but after 20 minutes of the adult leaders looking for it, we decided it was useless. The wallet had approx. $250 in it, about gagged us all when we heard it. The poor kid was so sullen and stunned, he was like a zombie. On Tuesday the kid got a notice that the sub camp director wanted to talk to him. When he got to sub camp HQ, there was his wallet. It had been found by a scouter from we will never know. He had picked up the wallet and after seeing the scouts registration card figured the scout would be at AP HILL. The scouter found out what sub camp the kid was at and left the wallet with the director. All the money was present. The scouter left without leaving any identification. See, those stories dont get told.

This actualy happened, Scouts Honor I was an assistant scoutmaster for the Jamboree in 2001. We spent the Saturday and Sunday proior to the opening Monday in Washington DC. One of our scouts lost his wallet in the Museum of Natural History on the Mall. I am not sure when he realized it was gone, but after 20 minutes of the adult leaders looking for it, we decided it was useless. The wallet had approx. $250 in it, about gagged us all when we heard it. The poor kid was so sullen and stunned, he was like a zombie. On Tuesday the kid got a notice that the sub camp director wanted to talk to him. When he got to sub camp HQ, there was his wallet. It had been found by a scouter from we will never know. He had picked up the wallet and after seeing the scouts registration card figured the scout would be at AP HILL. The scouter found out what sub camp the kid was at and left the wallet with the director. All the money was present. The scouter left without leaving any identification. See, those stories dont get told.

The troop I serve recently had the same problem, the same 4-5 scouts showed up to the PLC while many of the patrol leaders did not. A two pronged plan was put into effect. The scouts asked me to do a scoutmaster minute, in the past I have led the singing of Happy Birthday to You on February 22 to both Lord and Lady Powell and when the Troop had a meeting on Dec 7th, I asked them to remember their granparents role in the war amoung other thought provoking ideas. They asked I do something on PLC attendance. At the end of the next meeting I asked the whole troop what they thought if a US Senator didnt ever go to Washington, if the US president never showed up to work. What would happed if Congress didnot do anything. They all laughed and turned thumbs down and giggled, I then reminded them that election to the PLC meant those scouts were to represeent their patrol members in the PLC, the place got quiet quick After I agreed to the scoutmaster minute, I also then told the ASPLS (we have 2) and the SPL that they had to make the meetings interesting, stick to an agenda and control the group. My talk lasted 3 minutes (you know how scouters streetch time frames), it took a lot longer to keep the PLC on task. But, with coaching and support the meetings got more organized and patrol leaders started showing up. So now attednace is up.

As it turns out YoungSpikedEagle and I will be going to Yellowstone this year. Have your troop check out the following link http://www.nps.gov/yell/videos/index.htm It features video and photos in the park, it will give them a taste of what they will see, plas they have a wonderful video on camping in the backcountry as well. Let me know what you think of it

So, have you ever tried clipping their wings?

I could see a dollar deposit on a book returnable when the book is returned in good condition, then again, the whole definition of Good condition comes up. Way back when I was a youth (after Brownsea Island, but before the demise of the red berets) the Troop of my youth didnt have a library and I went to the Public Library and used the merit badge books housed there. Talk about knowing and utilizing your resources!