OldGreyEagle

Setting aside the environmental laws, burning down your house isn't illegal, it isn'r really smart though, what's illegal is burning down your house and then trying to collect insurance on it. (See What's Eating Gilbert Grape) Anyway, on to hate crimes and such. I think they are very flawed. If I murder a 10 year old girl, should I face a harsher penalty than if I murder a 90 year old man? What's with the mentality of "Oh, its so horrible, she had her whole life ahead of her", the 90 year old man had a life ahead of him as well, and he deserved to have it as much as the 9 year old. How about its wrong to murder, regardless of motivation. Adding "hate" crimes tells us some of us are more equal than others (See Animal Farm)and the same action can get different results depending on the victim, excuse me, how does the nature of the victim determine the punishment? if I murder a Jewish person, A Black person, a Moslem, or KKK member, why should the punishment be different? murder is wrong and should be punished the same. Now, we are mixing threads, not like that never happens, but burning the flag, while as despicable an act as I can think of, cant be illegal. As I read the articles, the amendment is to present desecration of the flag. So, who gets to define that? The same guys who drafted the "no dirty dancing cheerleader" routines in Texas? (sorry lone star staters). If I see a torn flag on a windshield? If an errant scout puts the flag on the wrong side of the podium? IF a flag is left out at night? In all the world, in all of our country we have to talk about this? Its the number one issue? Or is it a way to let politicians grandstand and posture and when its done accomplish a whole Heck of nothing? Personally I think a debate on Social Security and be more productive because the pig in the python advances. All of the Amendments strenthened the COnstitition starting with the Bill of Rights, each one addressed a issue that made us better (well Prohibition didnt work, thats another discussion) How does a ban on an action make us better?

I am so torn on this issue. On one regard, the American flag is the symbol of the country and represents the people who died defending it and allowing us to live the life we know and sometimes take for granted. Then again, as a symbol, it is just a piece of cloth and doesnt have any magical powers, and one could make the argument that the reason so many died for the American flag was to protect our way of life, which includes the right to burn that flag in protest. I think there is n alterntive, but I am unsure it can work. Flag burners have one goal, to inflame (no pun intended)the observers. Flag burners burn the flag to attract attention to themsleves and their cause. The best thing to do is to ignore them. A group sends out a press release that there will be a flag burning at 10:00 AM on the capital steps, the networks and all show up and a great hoopla is made, flags are burned and people incensed. What if instead of getting upset, the observers merely turned their backs and walked away. Those of you who watch football know that "streakers" and others who run on the field are rarely if ever televised becasue the networks dont want to give covereage to that person because they know if they do, such activities will increase, perhaps they should do the same with flag burners. Cover the event, just dont show a flag burning or make reference to it. When burning a flag wont get attention, it will stop. The quesiton is, can we control ourselves to walk away and allow this to happen?

Ah, so the lesson learned is that if one scout screws up in deciding an appropriate volume, or time of use, all scouts get penalized. Lets not have the scoutmaster talk it over with the individual scout, lets treat them all like sheep.

Ibadget, welcome to the forums, I am going to make a huge leap here and assume (never a good idea) that you are a youth in scouting. As a youth I hope you have had a wonderful experience and get out of scouting every you want. And I hope in later years you will give back to scouting something of yourself. I am not sure, but mayhaps you have come across adults who only have one vision of the world, and that includes scouting and will exert all their "adult" power on trying to force this vision on you, dont fall for it. If you ever think somebody is trying to force something on you, ask them, very respectfully, where that is written in the BSA publications. If you dont see it there, then there is no such rule. BTW Troop bylaws dont count, submit only to official BSA publications, Good Scouting!!! And, do you like The Killers? Mr Brightside?

To paraphase Ross Perot, that giant sucking sound you hear is the point flying over a posters head

This is just an outline of what I am talking about; the Grand Canyon Council has an excellent start: Trained Scoutmaster Trained Committee Chair Assistant Scoutmasters 50% trained Committee 50% trained Representation at least 75% of Roundtables held in a year Documentation of 8 regularly held PLC meetings Documentation of 8 regularly held Committee meetings Documentation of a Youth leadership training session done within 4 weeks of an election Patrols have flags and cheers and at least 2 patrol leaders a year Troop has at least one long term (7days) Camp a year Meetings are Youth lead Meetings are Youth planned Private interviews with SPL, ASPL at least one PL and at least 3 other scouts to verify the troop is boy lead The program would be totally voluntary, with the participating troops providing the manpower to make it work. This is just a start, I welcome additions, deletions and comments.

I wrote up a brief outline and sent my Troop Accreditation idea to my SE who shared it with the Council President and Commisioner, to say I was laughed off as a crank would be an understatment. The Council COmmisioner, who I am not sure read any of it, said that the Quality Unit took care of what I was talking about, which of course it doesnt, The President, a nice guy with no unit scouting experience, he followed the COmmisioners thinking, so its dead, but still a good idea.

Actually, the Scouting Program is fine, its not the program that needs to be tightened up, its the leaders who decide to run the program they want rather than the one thats written. Its the maverisk troops off doing stuff in a scout uniform thats the problem, not the official policies, they dont need to be changed, they need to be followed. That idea of the BSA Accredited Troop looks better and better. If you want to do your own thing, fine, you just wouldnt be acreddited.

Hey, I resemble that remark, I loved the red berets, they are/were cool. It's not the BSA's fault some can wear the beret with the panache required and others look like little Madeline wannabees. Not everyone looks hot in the knee socks and shorts but some of us still manage(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Le Voyageur mentioned my favorite author of all time, Hermann Hesse, you can't go wrong with Steppenwolf, Narcissus and Goldmund, Magister Ludi (The Glass Bead Game) Rosshalde, Beneath the Wheel, Demian (not the satan Demian) or Journey to the East. Whenever I read Hesse, I can just picture an elderly German gentleman sitting across from me telling the story, his writing style is unique

Packsaddle Is there a refrigerator on the porch full of PBR? if So, I know where you live, give or take a few states...

Wow, just like mouths, everyone will have an opinion on this. To me, and I venture to guess many other people, when someone says I am going "backpacking", an image of the person carrying all the gear needed for at least a one nights stay is conjured up. When I hear "I am going backpacking", I dont think of someone going out 5 miles, eating some food and comming back to the camp where he started. Actually even if it was 20-50 miles, its quite a hike, but not backpacking. I am going backpacking in Yellowstone next week, quick, what image do you get? Me staying in a hotel making day hikes or me hauling my gear over the trails?

Lord of the Flies (one assumes you have read this one) Red Badge of Courage Treasure Island Frankenstein (did you know 1/3 of the book is narraed by the monster? Dracula Deerslayer Last of the Mohicans

Gee Kudu, for a troop that purports to follow B-Ps original program, you sure do a lot of thinking for the boys and telling them what's what

Personally, the blue pill looks better and better every day

WHile no method is "official" I think the following method is the best: Tie 5-6 feet of string/cord to the four corners of the flag, whether cotton or nylon. Carry the flag to the fire and have the 4 flag bearers stretch the flag over the fire, the updraft created by the fire will stretch the flag up, have the flag beareres keep a strong grip. At a signal from the MC, the flag is slowly lowered over the flames, the slower the better. As the flag comes down, the updraft gets stronger so the grip on the string has to be tight. Stop lowering the flag just before it would touch the flames and let it hover there. In a few seconds the flag will burst into flames and disintegrate before you eyes. A worn cotton flag almost explodes, a nylon one will last a little longer but all material will be gone before any of it hits the ground. For huge flags such as those flown at courts, I have made a metal rack that sits in the fire and the folded flag is placed in it so no portion of the recognizable flag every touches the ground. I would prefer to retire it stretched to its full size, but a 20 ft fire in any direction gets unwieldly.

SO, as long as one side does it, its ok for the other to do so. Each side has attack dogs and that the way the game is played is my take on the answers. Then again, a people gets the government they deserve

Why did Trent Lott's comment generate so much juice and Howard Dean's isnt a blip?

So, Howard Dean the Chairman of the Democratic National Committee, the voice of the Democratic Party says Republicans are all white christian men who look alike and talk alike and think alike and in other speech he said he doubted that any republican had ever earned an honest living. Where is the outrage? When Trent Lott made an off-hand comment about Srom Thurmond, the media had a lynch mob mentality and whipped up on Trent, who might have deserved it. But, if being called a white christian male is an insult, what is Dean's opinion of praise? The man (Dean) is out of control, how long can the Democrats keep him before the choice is him or the party?

SWScouter, Ed's post isnt hard to follow when you factor in he will try almost anything he can to demean BobWhite's posts. He took one sentence and mocked it, completely ignoring the sentence: "The program can be easily taught if the volunteer makes the choice to accept it" That's the crux of the matter, you have to first want to learn before you can learn

According to Title 36, section 176, of the United States Code: "No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America;" Paragraph K of this same section, states: "The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning."

If you have a leader dead set against the First Class Emphasis/First Class First Year program, sending him/her to training on it, wont accomplish much. If a scout leader is convinced his trops adaptation of the Boy Scout Program, steeped deep in the Troops tradition is the only way to go and mocks the NLE presentation, nothing good can be accomplished. Part of training requires an open mind of the part of the student and a willingness to implement the training regardless of how they have done things in the past. Not to disagree to much with Bob White, but when you send a bad leader to training, I dont think you get a trained bad leader, you have a bad leader who had the material exposed to him, and thats about it, a characteristic of a bad leader is that he is untrainable.

Then again, Midas car repair centers have a few comercials going where the "Happy Voyageurs" need a brake job on the station wagon before the canoe trip. With neckerchiefs, uniform and references to an oath they do appear similar to an BSA unit. Whatever its called, Boy Scouts are "often imitated, never duplicated "

ladies and gentlemen (if indeed the case be so)FCE is not so much a personal goal for the scout, as a guide for the Troops program to have the components that will allow an active scout to reach first class in a year. If after a year, a troop can look back and say that all its scouts had the opportunity to earn first class by attending events on a regular basis,then they did their part. The scout also has to make the effort to be at events when advancement opportunities occur

Ronald Reagan was one of the greatest presidents of the 20th century, if not one of the greatest of all time. Ronald Reagan was a bumbling fool in the early stages of Alzheimers who was lucky enough to be in the right place at the right time.