OldGreyEagle

The great thing about this forum is that we get to see how other people do the same, or almost the same thing in other parts of the country, or state in this case. In the Council I serve, Venturing Recognitions (I call them recognitions as there are no ranks in Venturing) are quite scarce as well. When Venturing was first talked about, it was the flexibility of the program that attracted many of the first crew members and adults. The fact that advancement was not a method was advertised and darn it if it didnt resonate with a few crews. Crews were formed to "do things" not to work on awards, in the Crew I serve the charter members were composed of 5 Eagle Scouts and 5 Girl Scout Gold and a Silver, the last thing this group wanted was to work on more requirements, they just wanted to "do". The flexibility of the Venturing program also attracted adults who were tired of the, excuse the expression "boy scoutyness" of the District. Having District and Council events and attending Roundtables doesnt appeal to a lot of people and in this area, these were the ones who gravitated to Venturing. So, after 6 years or so, the Council wants to know why there aren't recognitions being awarded in Venturing and why there are no Roundtables and the answer is, thats not the way the program was marketed. If indeed Venturing is Non-Traditional (and it most assuredly is) then how can traditional measurements (recognitions earned, Roundtables attended) be used to measure its success?

Oz, December 7th is a pretty remembered date here in the states

Here is a story back the incident occurred: Boy Scout Killed By Lightning at Camp The Record of Hackensack ^ | 8.15.02 Posted on 08/15/2002 6:53:57 PM PDT by Coleus Clifton Scout, 16, killed by lightning EAST STROUDSBURG, Pa. - Lightning struck and killed a 16-year-old at a Boy Scout Camp on Friday night, police said. Matthew Tresca of Clifton was sitting at a picnic table under a dining tarp with 11 other members of his troop at about 7 p.m. Lightning struck a tent about 10 feet away, knocking Tresca to the ground. Camp personnel tried to revive him before emergency crews arrived. Tresca, a member of Boy Scout Troop 21, was pronounced dead at the Pocono Medical Center. He had spent the last week at the Resica Falls Boy Scout Camp in Middle Smithfield Township, about 70 miles north of Philadelphia. Stricken Scout sent others to safety Moments before he was fatally struck by lightning, a Clifton Boy Scout urged others to seek shelter, the boy's family said Sunday. Sixteen-year-old Matthew Tresca was on a weeklong camping trip with about a dozen Scouts in Middle Smithfield Township, Pa., when a violent storm moved in about 7 p.m. Friday. Tresca, a senior patrol leader for Troop 21, ordered about six others to leave the picnic area at the Resica Falls Boy Scout Camp. "Because of him, the other kids are alive," Tresca's uncle, Dan Marshall, said Sunday. Marshall said Tresca was heading for cover when lightning struck about 8 feet behind him, knocking him into a picnic bench, where he became entangled. A counselor tried to free the boy, who was conscious. "He said he was OK," he said of his nephew. At that point Tresca's heart stopped, and efforts to revive him failed. He was pronounced dead at Pocono Medical Center. Tresca was the eldest of four children. He had attended Don Bosco Technical High School in Paterson until June, when the school disbanded. He was to have started 11th grade at Clifton High School next month. Marshall recalled his nephew as a well-liked and conscientious boy "with a witty sense of humor." "He's going to be missed," he said. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

SaintCad, I dont know if you were around for the Equal Rights Amendment debate or if you were too young to remember it, but the arguments against same sex marriages you see here remind me of that era. I remember being told as a child by an adult I respected that he was against the Equal Rights Amendment because if it passed, then there couldn't be public Mens and Womens restrooms, all public toilets would have to be "unisex" and he just couldnt see how that would work. I dont understand how having Bob and bob get married by a religion that chooses to marry them translates to people legally marrying their pets or brothers marrying their sisters but when you cant win an argument based on logic, fear is a mighty handy second option. I think the word we need to pay attention to here is exenophobia

Before this is forgotten, file an Amended Advancement Report with the Scout Office, this cant be the first time such an oversight has occurred in the Council and its better to address sooner than latter.

this bears repeating I used to be a Bear, and a good old Bear too. And now I've finished Bearing, And I don't know what to do. I'm growing old a feeble, And I can Bear no more. So I'm going to work my Ticket while I can. Bsack to Gilwell, Happy Land, I'm going to work my ticket while I can and on another note, my patrol's theme song, Bear Down "Da Minsi Bears" (to be sung to the tune of the immortal fight song of an immortal football team that happens to play at the south end of Lake Michigan in a certain little midwestern city in a certain little stadium known as Soldiers field) Bear down, Da Minsi Bears Make every day a step to victory Bear down, Da Minsi Bears We will never forget Gilwell Park and its history We will never forget our fascination With coping with all the information Bear down, Da Minsi Bears Let them know you are wearing the crown Our pride and joy though others we annoy Da Minsi Bears, Bear Down!!! (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

What are you talking about?

Was any found here? http://www.boyscouttrail.com/square-knots.asp

Ed, I would ask the same question others have asked, how does same sex marriage effect me? or perhaps rather you? I am Catholic, there wont be any same sex marriages going on in my church any time soon. Yellowhammer, I agree with you about the Alaskan oilfields, what is being done today, now, to bring them into production? When oil reaches $100 a barrel? I think I heard estimates that from the time an Oil Company got permission to drill to the first time a gallon of gas obtained from that oilfield hit a gas tank would be 10 years. I think it makes a difference if thats 2016 or 2026 to the future economy. And screamin' Dean? Is this the same guy who opined that Republicans have never done an honest days work? Who said that no Democrat took any of the Abramoff money? How did that absurd weirdo get into this discussion? And where did anyone mention gun control?

Beavah, If following rules is a bad thing, then color me guilty. I believe that following the rules of an organization I belong to is the right thing to do and if following those rules puts me in a group with Lynda J, I join that group gladly. If someone posts here and asks an opinion about what I think, I will offer that opinion, if the post asks what I think about a practice that is against BSA policy I will point out that the practice is against BSA policy and make no apologies for doing so. The aims of the BSA are the development of charactor, citizenship and personal fitness. I do not see how developing citizenship and charactor is aided by volunteers who do not follow the rules of an organization especially when these rules are known to them. Like I said earlier in this thread, sometimes you and I see some things differently and this is one of them.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-b5-3lightning-5rjun09,0,163436.story June 9, 2006 Negligence charged in Scout camp death Trial starts in family's lawsuit over teen who died after lightning strike in Monroe. By Wayne Parry Of The Associated Press | Boy Scout leaders knew a lightning storm was near a Pennsylvania camp when they dismissed 350 Scouts from a dining hall to their tents, then lied about it after lightning killed a 16-year-old Scout, a lawyer for the victim's family said Thursday. In a trial that will challenge the Boy Scouts of America's policy on lightning safety at camps across the country, the family of Matthew Tresca claims he would still be alive had leaders at the camp near East Stroudsburg heeded repeated warnings that a dangerous storm was approaching. ''We contend this story, that it was a blue sky and there was only lightning to the southeast, is a fabrication,'' said lawyer Peter Korn during his opening statement in state Superior Court. ''We contend that fabrication was created by them to cover their failure that night, and deceive ultimately you, as a jury.'' The lawsuit involves the Aug. 2, 2002, death of Tresca, a Boy Scout from Clifton who was at a one-week summer camp in the Pocono Mountains with about 300 other Scouts. According to court documents, the National Weather Service had warned throughout the afternoon of severe weather in the area of the Resica Falls Scout reservation in Monroe County. At the end of supper, with lightning visible in the distance, Scout leaders dismissed the boys from the dining hall and sent them to their campsites in the woods. About 7 p.m., lightning struck a tent pole near the picnic table where Tresca was sitting under a tarp. He went into cardiac arrest and was pronounced dead within 90 minutes. Tresca's parents are suing the Boy Scouts and the Scout council that ran the Pennsylvania camp, alleging that proper training and planning would have kept the boys longer in the shelter of the dining hall and prevented Tresca's death. The Boy Scouts deny negligence. Scout leaders have blamed the boy's death on a ''rogue lightning bolt'' coming from skies that appeared to be clearing. National Scout officials say they work hard to provide safety information to local Scout councils, and trust council staff to apply it as necessary. Scout camps are attended by more than 1 million children a year. An Associated Press investigation found that since 1995, seven Scouts and Scout leaders have been killed and about 50 hurt in 15 lightning incidents at Scout camps or on expeditions. In addition to the Boy Scouts of America, the Trescas are suing the Philadelphia-based Cradle Of Liberty Council, a geographical subdivision of the parent organization, and three Scouting employees. Korn said the National Weather Service had been issuing bulletins all day about the likelihood of lightning in the area. ''The storm was real and it was headed straight for Resica Falls,'' he said. ''It was into this scene that Matthew and the 350 other Scouts were sent by these gentlemen here. This case is about the horrendous decision that was made that night to send these kids from the dining hall into the teeth of that storm.'' Richard Grossman, the lawyer for the Boy Scouts of America, said the national organization provides advice and guidance about outdoor safety, but leaves it to local councils to develop plans specific to their camps. ''The Boy Scouts of America cannot stop lightning from happening,'' he said. ''They can try to reduce the risk, and that's what they have tried to do. For me to sit here and listen to Mr. Korn tell you that these people in the Boy Scouts of America don't care about Matthew Tresca or people hit by lightning is just outright wrong. ''They looked at the sky and looked at the weather and collectively decided that the danger had passed,'' Grossman said. ''The Boy Scouts of America was not in any way negligent or irresponsible. They did not shirk their known responsibility to try to make Scouting as safe as possible.'' Lawyers for both sides estimate the trial could last four to five weeks.

I see the question of same sex marriage coming down to a question of why do we have laws anyway? I see laws as the rules that a society constructs to protect the members of that society. Since laws are supposed to be absolute (sic!), meaning they apply to everyone, sometimes laws have negative consequences for a particular situation even though it may over all be good, As a society, we have determined that we will protect our children. It wasnt always that way, child labor laws are a rather recent innovation when you consider the entire history of the industrial revolution. As a society we protect our youth by many ways, we require babies to be placed in appropriate auto seats. We dont allow the young to purchase alcohol or tobacco products or have a drivers license until they reach a certain age. We require that they attend school to a certain age. All of these laws can be seen as a type of discrimination, but our society has said that this is a good and correct discrimination. ] The prohibition against incest, as I have understood it, is as much a health issue as an ick issue. Most often incest involves a minor and an adult and we have already said that child are a protected class of people. But what happens when the child becomes an adult? At 21 would a daughter marry her father? Again, getting past the ick issue there is the question of what such events would do to the gene pool and then consider the likelihood of birth defects and we prohibit it as a culture. Wasnt always this way, many royal families in Europe had quite a bit of family members marrying each other usually to eventual detriment. The question polygamy is interesting; in the most recent past the part of American Society that had the most recent brush with this is the LDS church. And why did this occur? It wasnt because Joseph Smith or Brigham Young thought multiple wives were a good thing, the problem was that because of religious intolerance many LDS males were being lynched, murdered and otherwise made dead. This left a large portion of their community females without a male and this was clearly a threat to the continued existence of their way of life. So polygamy was allowed, even to the point of being encouraged because with the deaths of males, more children were needed to repopulate the ranks. Once religious attitudes cooled a bit, the focus on polygamy was relaxed until now where it is prohibited by the mainstream LDS hierarchy. Will circumstances ever bring up the question of polygamy again either for a segment of the population or for society as a whole? I have no idea. In the future a mysterious space borne virus may sterilize all but the most resistant 20 percent of males who may be charged with the job of producing enough offspring to keep the society viable, who know what the future could bring? The 40 year old marrying the 14 year old doesnt work because of the existing laws covering marriage, but I need some help here, how old was Jerry Lee Lewiss wife when they got married? And wasnt it a legal marriage because they had parental consent? And what is the legal age at which you can married in your state, with parental consent and without? I know it varies quite a bit Illegal drugs are another story. The reason why drugs are illegal is because of their detrimental effects on society. We all know about the pause that refreshes. Originally Coca Cola, of course refreshed, it had cocaine in it, why wouldnt it refresh? But we as a society saw the effects and said we wont have such a material legally available to members of our society. Alcohol is sorta the same way. When I was a youth there was not much of a stigma on drunk driving, people didnt talk about it much. That has changed. When I was a youth just about every adult I knew smoked, today just about every adult I know wants to tell children about the hazards of smoking and smoking in airports, restaurants, etc. is now illegal. Which finally brings us to the topic of gay marriage. I guess I am not sure what the resistance is. Gay couple have existed for quite a long time. Not having gay marriage will not stop same sex couples so whats the problem? Two adults living together want their union blessed? Go for it, make it legal, let the gay community enjoy the world of divorce as well as the straight. Religions wont have to marry same sex couples, its up to them to set the rules and then members of that church get to decide to vote with their feet if this makes a difference to them. How will society change if gay marriages are allowed?

Ed, I dont know how to break this to you, but I have a same sex couple living next to me now, whether they have a document granting a legal or religious union wont change the fact they are living together. I would rather the nation spend its collective energy on how social security is going to be funded in 20 years and where its energy is going to come from rather than the legal/religious status of Bob and Bob's(not their real names)union.

Sorry Beavah, I am not sure I understood you but I will give it a go. So, its ok for the volunteer to change the rules just because he is a volunteer?

UU= Unitarian Universalist I apologize for my obtuseness SaintCad, I was responding to ohadams statement in this thread where he posted "...I'm not so concerned about my own spirituality conflicting with BSA rules--I just don't think it's fair or sensible to declare that people with differnt views cannot be "the best kind of" citizens." when we all know Bear fans are the best fans in the world edited part: Where in my post did you think I was accusing anyone of homosexuality (not that there is anything wrong with that)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

If you think that WB'ers are elitist and arrogant, you oughta meet some of the WB'ers I know who took WB prior to Wood Badge for the 21rst Century, otherwise known as WoodBadge before National completley screwed it up. Now that bunch was elitist and arrogant. I was priviliged/cursed to take the first 21rst Century class our council did and was reminded of that fact by the old guard quite readily. I like to think that that attitude is being thinned by time, but who knows? OTOH, where else but WOod Badge can you go to be in a room with scores of other scouters just as jazzed up on scouting as you are, where you can sing songs and plan programs for the youth without reserve? (sung to Home on the Range)(with feeling) Aren't Wood Badgers grand For the programs they plan And the hours they put in each night? If they're ever home You know they're on the phone For the youth who they want to teach right. CHORUS: We're at home in the woods. On weekends with our units we stay. Thought we never get rest, The youth are doing their best, And that's what we're getting for pay! They hike to their site Though it takes half the night Through the wind and the rain and the snow! These leaders so brave They could live in a cave Except that their spouses just say No! Camp food tastes just great, Like an old paper plate, And the bug juice is not fit to drink. So why every year, For a week we come here It's not for vacation, we think! They read magazines With great camping scenes, Frustration does things to their brains. Champagne is taboo, Coors Lite is too, So for forty eight hours they abstain. They feel like old men, On a camp out, they've been To be clean, to be warm, to be dry! But to tell you the truth, they're re living their youth So in answer they merely reply!

Back when Brett Farvre quarterbacked the Packers to the Superbowl win and said that Packer fans were the best fans in the world, it didnt upset me. When John Elway quarterbacked the Denver Broncos to the the SUperbowl win and said that Broncos fans were the best in the world it didnt upset me and when Tom Brady quarterbacked the Patriots to a Superbowl win and said that Patriot fans were the best fans in the world, it didnt bother me. I guess its something to be expected when you are proud of who you are

It wasn't that long ago we (the American Public) was told that that Social Security system was in a mess and that strong measures had to be adopted because if not, the system would go belly-up in a few years. Now many different groups argue when the belly-up date is, but there is no argument that such a date does indeed exist. There was a lot of hand wringing and talk about what needs to be done but as far as I can tell, nothing was done or is being done and the clock continues to tick. Then just recently there was a lot of talk about how the borders of the US represent a sieve and there needs to be strong measures to rememdy the situation as illegal immigrants are sucking the country dry and our security demands that the borders are sealed. A lot of talk and not much else, oh yeah, demonstrations both for and against illegal immigratiion but nothing substantiative that I can find. THen there was talk about "unjust" profits that the oil companies were reaping and that the nations economy couldnt handle it and we needed more oil and it was time to design a real energy policy that would break the dependence on foreign (read Mid-East) oil. And gas prices have gone down a but, although not to pre-spike levels and I havent seen a whole bunch on drilling more or alternative energy supplies and what we are doing to control the countries energy sources. And now, in the midst of having our borders over run by illegals, being dependent on not always friendly people for our energy and an aging population whose Social Security system needs attention we get told our society needs a Constitutional Amendment to define marriage as the sanctity of marriage is under attack and its a threat to our way of living that needs to be defended? Who comes up with this stuff? If Carson Kressley comes out and says he has just discovered how to generate energy by a "kitchen sink" cold fusion process I just might be inclined to kiss him full on the lips and may add some tongue. We complain that our youth cant seem to stay on task, I wonder where they get that from?

Beavah, I understand we tend to take different viewpoints on subjects so I am trying to see this from your viewpoint. Are you saying that because a volunteer is a volunteer its ok for that volunteer to change the program that that volunteer volunteers for and to chanllenge that volunteer means that the person who is doing the challenging has to be ready to replace the challenged volunteer elsewise be silent?

OK, I admit I was the one who opended this thread after is was closed. I didnt open it becasue I enjoy seeing jkhny rile against the BSA and I didnt open it because I think jkhny is correct, but I did open it because this is the politics and issues forum and jkhny has a right to post what he will and we all have the right to respond or ignore. We may as well ask Fred why he posts what he does and ... wait a minute, we did ask Fred and he got a vote of confidence... Oh well, if you disagree with jkhny, let him know, if you want this thread to disappear, dont respond to it. I am taking a chance here as I didnt close it originally and I dont want to step on another moderators toes. If exchanges get abusive, which by some current threads gives lots of room, then it will disappear altogether

This is an Internet Forum about scouting. People who ask for an opinion here should expect to receive a spectrum of answers and if what they post is against BSA policy, they should expect to have that pointed out. I am not sure when quoting policy became a bad thing but some think it is. Adding a Life Scout Leadership Project is not permissible, simply stated thats the end. I would think that in todays climate, the Emergency Prep merit badge should be required and I would think the troop I serve would do a great service to the boy if the troop required it, but we cant no matter how well intentioned the idea. gilski asked and was responded to, I think this internet stuff might catch on

I may have missed this, but bobanon, what is your connection to scouting?

For What Its Worth, Thank you all !

Vest is best!

So would this be an example of a pocket patch "flap"?