OldGreyEagle

beavah, totally confused by your answer, although thats not all that unusual. So you are saying that its ok for scouts to download songs and not pay for them as the songs are in the public domain? That a scout can videograph a movie he has paid to see via a digital recorder and then sell copies of his recording? The constitution address intellectual property? Where? I do admit I have lots to learn, this is just another example I guess I also didnt recognize the opposition that copy right laws engender in today's society.

Gonzo, I assume you told your scouter buddy about the Venturing Program, or he already knows about it? His grand daughter is very welcome right now!

SO its ok to shaft an industry because that industry and the BSA doesnt see eye to eye on an unrelated issues? Does this mean we get to heckle the sermons and egg churches that allow same sex marriages or avowed homosexuals to be members of their clergy? So the scout law should be amended to say a Scout is trustworthy ... unless of course he is committing an act of piracy against the godless huns of the MPAA and associated riff-raff then alls fair ? So, I admit to acts of hyperbole, but help me understand why a law abiding citizen would not support this?

A quick trip to the PRAY website shows there are awards for the following, Buddhist, Hindu, Meher Baba, and Zoroastrian. All with distinctly non-Judeo Christian/God of the bible foundations. (I took B'Hai out, OGE) (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

I am a little confused, but that is natural. When an adult fills out the Adult Application he implies ( I think thats the right word) that he will follow the BSA program I do believe this has been discussed. So now at a Board of Review, one of the crowning jewels of the Adult Association method of the BSA program and a scout announces quite convincinly that he has no proof God exists and we say that its not the BOR's job to bother doing anything about it? It appears the BOR asked several questions and came away with the impression the boy does not beleive in God. Now, either he can be a member of the BSA by following the membership requirements or he cant. The decision doesnt and shouldnt be made hastily, but it has to be made if the troop is to follow the program. What is the mission of the BSA? How does glossing over a basic requirement of membership by adults fit in there? We constantly say Boy Scouts is a good program because it build charactor and we are there for the boys and then when a bump appears in the road we pull over and avoid it? So, what do you do when the other boys of the troop talk about how Ulysses (not his real name, I hope)told those old geezers off at the BOR about how God doesnt exist and they did nothing about it? How do you then represent reverence to them as part of the scout law when you allow the boy to remain and possibly advance in the troop? It is natural for youth to test boundaries and push them, it is the responsibility of the adults to assure that the boundaries established by the BSA are followed. The BSA requires a belief system/Religion/Something. If after a serious discussion with the youth, and maybe with parents, clergy, anyone who can help the boy does not acknowledge the existence of a higher power then the end result is clear. We talk about teaching a boy about consequences, why is this different? We talk about God in the Oath, how do we dismiss it? It may not be an adults task to seek out those who dont qualify for membership, but when one steps up waving his hand screaming here I am, it can't be ignored

Way back in 1963 I was naught but a young child and a rabid football fan. I lived in the western suburbs of a little city located on the shores of Lake Michigan. Dem Bears did good that year and ended up the regular season 11-1-2. being 10 years old at the time, I had never heard about playoffs and championship games. So, on sunday 12/29/63 when my father came home after working that day he asked why I wasnt listening to the Bears game on the radio. (Since it was a home Bears game, the area was blacked out even though it was a sell out). I laughed at him and said the season was over and he wasnt going to get me to get all excited. Well, this went on for about 20 minutes until I decided to prove him wrong. I got to the radio just in time to hear the immortal Jack Brickhouse say "So that't the story from Wrigley Field, Bears 14 the New York Football Giants 10". I was devastated, I swore I would never miss another Bears Championship game. Of course at the time I didnt realize the next time the Bears would be in a championship game I would be holding my six month old son in 1986. I did OK in scouting, earned Eagle in 1969 and life evolved. My son joined the troop and I became active and ended up signing up for Wood Badge. I had wanted to be an Eagle, since I was an Eagle in scouts. Imagine my surprise when I found out I was to be a Bear. Imagine my patrol members surprise when I pulled out of my duffel bag a shower sized Chicago bears beach towel. We folded down the "Chicago" part and left the snarling face and word "BEARS" visible. Then the SPL started putting together his seating chart and was going from table to table writing where the patrols were. He would ask each table, you are the? and the response would come "Angry Beavers", "Wandering Buffaloes" etc. When he got to us, he asked, "You are the.. oh Bears" because he saw the towel and then he said how did you know? My answer, Fate! We became Da Minsi Bears and are still writing our history 5 years later. Now, to the point. When I took Wood Badge, I paid for the whole deal. This past September 4 members of the troop adult leadership took Woode Badge. Since the troop has establsihed a tradition of paying half of a youth's cost to attend the Council NYLT program, I suggested at the Troop Committee meeting the Troop do the same for the Wood Badgers. The motion carried. So, do you remember Supercrunch Dick Butkus? The Kansas Comet Gale Sayers? Sweetness Walter Payton? Iron Mike Ditka? All Bears and so am I

Do a search on the forum for Darrell Lambert, he was an Atheist who had his BSA membership revoked because he was an Atheist, in one thread a BSA spokesman (I think it was a BSA spkesman said) "We give great latitude to our members as adult leaders as to what they profess as belief," said Farmer. "It can be through a church or religion or greatly unstructured. Mother Nature would be acceptable." http://www.scouter.com/forums/viewThread.asp?threadID=19496#id_19803 Ask the boy if he beleives in a higher power than himself, if he does, he may be a scout, if he doesnt, he cant.

Just make sure you never tell the Gypsy woman that the boy causing all the trouble is named Larry Talbot...

Sorry for my parochial expression, A Coke Wagon is a red trailer that is obtained from our local Coca-Cola distributor, it has a propane grill in it and two sides for dispensing soda and product. Since we are a non-profit, Coke gives us the use of the trailer and we pay for the supplies used and cups. If we can supply the cups, we dont have to pay for them

Gonzo1, Merlyn is the forum's resident atheist and all around BSA critic. He never has claimed to be anything else

You did it again, That's two posts in a row that tells me you have no idea about Boy Scouts. I may be being priggish about this and if so, I accept but the error you are making is incomprehensible to me that it is made by someone who took Wood Badge and proclaims he is out to save scouting. I agree with you that the program could/should be changed. Changes to the program are not that uncommon, but I think the changes should be proposed by at the very least someone who understands the program and doesnt flame boy scout forum pages. I once had to correct a poster who claimed to be a great intellectual and historian who totally misrepresented how WWI started, I find you to be in the same category. Dont worry, I wont be responding to you anymore and would hit the ignore button but as a moderator I cant and I find I will have to read your posts closer to see what other errors you make.

Brian, I have no idea why you post here. I have serious reservations about your committment to the Boy Scout program. Your last posting has such an egregious error in it, I question you actually know anything about Boy Scouting, its history and its aims. Your missteps about Wood Badge patrol names and mis spellings about scouting were puzzling, but the latest one tells me you have zero knowledge about the history of the program.

Ok, so the logic that appears that needs to be followed is that Assistant Patrol Leader can't be used as a POR, but Patrol Scribe, Patrol Quartermaster, Patrol Historian, etc can be?

I tried and coulnt do it, but that may mean I just didnt look with "the right phrases", can someone find how many registered voters there are who view themselves as democratic, republican, and independent? (edited to add: I meant percent of voters in each group, not those who claim allegiance to all three groups)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Running a Coke Wagon with Hot DOgs has worked for us, the key is to get as much donated as possible in terms of hot dogs, buns, condiments etc

If I understand the situation, you have a lot of hearsay evidence that points to the dark side and you have experience that says the boy has changed. I would wait to observe some behavior, either good or not and immediately reinforce it. With either a good job pat on the back or a quick though private rebuke. You have been made aware of a potential problem, but I would hold off on any action until you witness a problem or at the very least undesirable behavior is verified by multiple sources.

OK, so what I see is a discussion between the sides of the aisle over who is least reprehensible. Both sides have their share of human failings and the contest is to see whose side can spin the best. Any thought on how Social Security will be fixed, because it has to be or how Medicare is going to work in the baby boomer age or is savaging each other's bones the primary mission of each political party and public policy pretty much a second thought. I was once told that it was easy to be an independent because then you didnt have to stand for anything, well if I have to stand with either side I will be vomitting the entire time.

As much as I dont know about NASCAR, and I know almost nothing, I thought Jeff Gordon was the "Rainbow Warrior" or was someone pulling my leg? Remember when the University of Hawaii's Football team was the the Rainbow Warrior? Made as much sense as the present day University of Pennsylvania's Fighting Quakers

As someone once said, all politics are local. So, I know our Council does a good job with Eagle records, leastwise they have in any situation with which I have been involved. Other Councils? I have no idea.

Oops Eamonn, I thought we were talking about services offered by the Council, certainly training is offered and run by volunteers. I will have to look at my answers if you meant services offered by the Pros. I would keep the advancement records of course and the summer camps. I will add another one later

-Advancement Records When the aspiring Eagle candidate wants his application approved, the documentation certifying his advancement to Life and the earning of the stated merit badges had better be present and Council is the keeper of this data. (Leastwise where I live) -Summer Camp The Council runs two Boy Scout Camps and a Cub Scout resident Camp all assets to the Community -Training While much training is done at the District Level, there are other training Programs that are best offered at the council level because the numbers involved offer the best experiences such as Wood Badge, Powderhorn, NYLT. And I would love to say Scout Store, but a brilliant past Council Exec sold off the Council Store a few years back so technically its not part of Council

So, Gonzo, You are at one scout run Flag Retirement Ceremony and it goes badly in your mind so you think the answer is to prevent all Boy Scout troops and Cub Scout packs from participating nationally? Did you offer to help run the next one to be sure dignity and respect are present? Do you often experience something once and then decide national policy should be shaped based on a single empirical event?

Not as yet, as far as I know (nothing like a definitive answer and the above is nothing like one )

I am really torn over this subject, even as a soldier B-P saw the brotherhood of scouting to be an International Movement that could make the thought of war impossible. That no one would make war against a brother scout. A true soldier understands the horror of war and wants everything to be done so he doesnt have to do his duty, realizing he will when called upon. I have often said in these pages that the US certainly knows how to wage war, we are pretty good at it and I certainly want to be sure we keep that skill. I woudl also like to see if we could learn to wage peace as well as we wage war. Waging peace is something we havent been as sucessful at. The Marshall Plan worked well post WWII. I wonder if the Marshall Plan has more to do with the way Germany and Japan have become our allies post WWII than us smashing them into submission. By the way, the only way to win WWII was to smash them into submission. So, we fast forward to today. I do not see how you can talk to people who want you dead and your way of life erased off the earth. These are not people you can work with and its the reason we will always need a strong military, there will always be those who want us dead and we need a defense against them. So, what do we do? I know a long time ago, I think it was when I first discovered GOOGLE, I found a paper published by the UN that amoung other things estimated the cost of providing every human on earth clean water. I don't know how old the paper was, but it set the cost at 200 billion (I could be worng, but I thought that was the total)and I remember thinking at the time, wow thats a lot of money, no one could do that. But when I see what we spend on war efforts (all justified mind you) I wonder about it. What if we as a nation set as a goal providing clean water to every human on earth, not because it's easy, but because it's hard. Not to do right now, but in some time frame. And then we do it. Now, I have listened to enough talk radio to want to respond to those who think this is merely appeasement, no its not. We talk about wanting to win the hearts and minds of people and then bomb the heck out of them. We worry about what people are told about the US and how the media, national and internatioally distorts our intentions. Its simple (in relative terms)We provide sources of clean water and move on. There are those who will always hate the US, there may not be anyway for us to change them. But every 10 years or so there is a new generation and these the ones we have the best chance with. It would be hard to influence people who grew up staring at USA stamped on their water sources that we are the great Satan. Do we do this because we want to appease? No, we do this because its the right thing to do. We keep out military strong because we have to, but foreign policy is more than be on our side or you are dead

well lets see here: According to Title 36, section 176, of the United States Code: "No disrespect should be shown to the flag of the United States of America;" Paragraph K of this same section, states: "The flag, when it is in such condition that it is no longer a fitting emblem for display, should be destroyed in a dignified way, preferably by burning." Oddly enough no mention that the VFW. American Legion et al shoudl be the only ones holding such ceremonies. Well you said you may ruffle feathers so here's some ruffled. My son's Eagle Project was to replace American Flags at the graves of veterans at 6 local cemetaries and then collect American Flags that were no longer fit for display. He collected over 600 flags and put together readings and had a pal from the band put together an ensemble that played patriotic songs while the ceremony was going on. He read the opening quote and started the ceremony. Each flag had a string tied at the corners, the flag was brought over the flames and slowly lowered, the updraft would catch the flag and then it would burst into flames a couple inches above the flames. The VFW post that sponsored his project was quite impressed with this patriotic young man and three of the Post attended his Eagle Court of Honor. In our community the 9-11 Remembrance has become synonomous with a flag retirement. In the past 5 years all the 9-11 ceremoies have been planned by the Boy Scouts, boys of different troops comming together. A Flag Retirement is the center of the activities. The local American Legion and VFW posts have thnaked the boys because the posts dont have the membership to put on such an event. When I see the boys working on and at the event, I think they understand. When a Cub Scout participates, as well as Brownies (at the first ceremony it was established anyone who showed up in uniform was allowed to participate)I can't guarantee you they understand the complete meaning, but they do grasp that this is a big deal and something a lot of adults care deeply about and they get to help. Let's see, developing caring adults who are proud to be citizens, sounds like our mission is in there somewhere.