OldGreyEagle

Maybe uner the title of a petition for a new Wood Badge patrol, the Llama's Oh oh oh oh I got a Wood Badge Patrol named Llama Llama Llama Llama Ding Dong Its everything to me Llama Llama Llama Ding Dong I'll never set them free For Its mine, all mine Oh oh oh oh I got a Wood Badge Patrol named Llama Llama Llama Ding Dong, Its fine to me, Llama Llama Llama Ding Dong You don't believe that Its mine, all mine I love them, Love them, love them so. That I'll never, never let them go. You may be certain Its mine, all mine, Its mine all of the time. Oh I got a Wood Badge Patrol named Lllama Llama, Lllama Llama Ding Dong Its everything to me Lllama Llama, Lllama Llama Ding Dong I'll never set them free For Its mine, all mine

Thank you for your quick reply, I would post more but apparently I am late for my Megalomania Classes, if I am late one more time I have to wear the smallest crown in the class for a week ::Rummaging in closet, now where did I put that scepter?::

I only ask this because at times I suffer from JanBrady syndrome, when you talk and post and it doesnt seem like anyone heard/read what you said. What was wrong with my description of how my home district handles Blood drives?

Actually, I think ol' Sherm used the phrase "Horse hockey", he was an old cavalry man you know but I digress. Like I have said from the beginning, it depends on how its written, I dont see how, but if the sticking points are covered, it might be ok

Isn't it funny how the same document can be looked at so many different ways, or am I just channeling Ed? Scout Nut Anyway, in the Eagle Leadership Project Workbook, in the section titled "Limitations", it's just above the section you quoted, it states, "Routine labor (a job or service normally rendered) should not be considered..." now this will involve an admitted interpretation but in our District we take this to mean it has to be more than a "routine" service project. Organizing a work party to cut the grass at the local park is a great idea and helpful to a community with restricted park funds, but a few weeks later the grass will need to be cut again, therefore we consider it routine labor as cutitng the grass is a job normally done. Now, looking at that same park and leading a work crew to remove a few years worth of undergrowth so that it enlarges the useful area of the park is different as it involves the use of axes or power tools and arranging for the disposal of the cut brush. Of course then putting up a piece of playground equipment along with plantings researched by the scout would be great. When I said the project should be of import to the community, I used the phrase I always tell scouts who ask me about Eagle Projects, I want them to consider a project that stretches them a little, to enlarge their scope. If I implied that this sentence "The concept of the Eagle Leadership project is that it is to be a service project of lasting import to the community" was found in any BSA literature, I apologize, I resolve to use quotation marks when I cite any BSA source or at least give a website address where such may be found. Interestingly enough, the section above "Limitations" is titled "Originality" and it reads as follows "Does the leadership service project for Eagle have to be original, perhaps something you dream up that has never been done before? The answer: No, but it certainly could be. You may pick a project that has been done before, but you must accept responsibility for planning, directing, and following through to its successful completion." How does a scout do these things for a Blood Drive when the organization has the event planned, organized and provides the equipment and supplies. Like I said, it depends on how its written http://www.nesa.org/trail/18-936.doc(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I need solace of the BSA historian types out there to help me, wasnt Leave No Trace developed with the help of the BSA? I seem to remember something said at either a Wood BAdge or Powderhorn Course on how the BSA and other organizations got together to develop the principles, or did I deam it?

Before I go totally off on a tangent, I do need to return to the question at hand. I have posted my thoughts on a Blod Drive, but at the same time I have to emphasize if a scout came and had in his write up how he was going to show leadership and how it would be of lasting importance to the community, I could change. Frequently a scout will ask me what I think of a particular idea for an Eagle project, and I say sounds good, what about X? And then rather quickly I see I am being drilled for the info I will soon be reading on a project approval form. My conditioned response now is, "It depends on how its written up", that's become the District Advancement COmmittees mantra, similar to the Scoutmaster who says, I dont know, ask your patrol leader. SO there are any number of projects that maybe "good enough" for an Eagle project or not, depending on the written treatment.

Local1400, I didnt say that the IRS authored Medicare guidlines, I said the people who author the IRS tax code are the same ones who author Medicare guidelines (anybody here on Medicare D?) The same people being the dear old Feds, whatever branch they serve, then again, everybody join me in the chrous: Who can it be knocking at my door? Go 'way, don't come 'round here no more. Can't you see that it's late at night? I'm very tired, and I'm not feeling right. All I wish is to be alone; Stay away, don't you invade my home. Best off if you hang outside, Don't come in - I'll only run and hide. CHORUS: Who can it be now? Who can it be now? Who can it be now? Who can it be now? Who can it be knocking at my door? Make no sound, tip-toe across the floor. If he hears, he'll knock all day, I'll be trapped, and here I'll have to stay. I've done no harm, I keep to myself; There's nothing wrong with my state of mental health. I like it here with my childhood friend; Here they come, those feelings again! CHORUS Is it the man come to take me away? Why do they follow me? It's not the future that I can see, It's just my fantasy Oh...Who can it be now? Oh...Who can it...Who can it...

The concept of the Eagle Leadership project is that it is to be a service project of lasting import to the community, such as the ecological projects that GWD described. I am not sure how a single Blood Drive is of lasting importance to the community, but there are other issues. Technically speaking the Red Cross does not sell blood, it makes blood available to hospitals and other facilities that need it and only charges "processing" fees. I know, I know, it sounds like doublespeak of the highest order, but then keep in mind my day job is a Medicare Compliance Consultant and whether a hospital buys its blood from a proprietary blood bank or gets it from a volunteer system such as the Red Cross makes a huge difference on how you report it's use to Medicare, beleive me, if it sounds hard to accept to you try explaining to the CFO that gets invoices from Red Cross on the 1,000 units of blood they received last month that they didnt buy it, but are merely paying "processing" fees. (BTW, since Medicare rules are brought to you by the same people who author the IRS tax code, you can see the fun I have every day) SO actually doing a projet for the Red Cross would be ok, but I dont think a blood drive would work. Again, an Eagle Project's emphasis is on leadership, no Blood Bank is going to allow a youth to organize a blood drive, assembling the team of nurses and technicians trained to do the testing and care for the blood and do the venipunctures. You call the blood bank, schedule the date and then lay back. The appropriately trained credentialed and certified personnel show up on the date scheduled. On the date of the drive maybe you have some scouts show up to run the cookie and juice table, but thats about it. The employees of the blood bank have federal procedures (not guidelines) they must follow. The whole of a blood drive is pretty much already planned out. There is no patient traffic flow to determine, the type and cross match is standard, the only thing left is to have the scout say is coke? or orange juice? Maybe the scouts can help set up and take down the equipment, but again, thats done according to the time tested plan already used by the Blood Bank. Now, I will say this, in the District we "discourage" scouts from doing a blood drive as an "Eagle Project" based on what I have said so far, but we do not give verbal approvals. We have the scout write the project up and give him an opportunity to present it to the Advancement Committee (or not) the presentaion allows us to talk to the scout and he many times can explain what he wants to do and amplify areas that need further explanation. If more information is required, then we have the scout in front of us writing down what needs to be answered. Scouts can turn in the approval form and not be present and if we have questions, the chair brings those back to the scout and then we get his answers, the presentation is faster but I digress. I said we discourage it, but if a scout could write up a Blood Drive and show Eagle Leadership Project opportunity then we would consider it, but he would have to do much more than hang a few posters for publicity, calling the blood bank, and getting a few kids to push cookies. I guess its possible, but I would have to be wowed by his write up

We are the largest recognized organization taking kids in the back country so we will catch heat whether deserved or not. Wonder if Outward Bound has an image problem, does it have an image? Then again, its leaders are required to be trained (and How!)It is good (!!!) to note the last several lost climbers/hikers/whatevers were not Boy Scout related, then again, Spring is comming...

I understand Lisabob, let me say this about that: If during the Board of Review you find a scout who can't tie a bowline, look back to what I have said, be sure the scout learns it and have him teach it at the next possible time, at least thats what I hope I posted. The idea is your program should not be about learn a scout skill, pass it and forget it until the BOR process or something like that. The scoutcraft skills should be woven into the troops program so inherently you can ask any scout to tie any knot (if its rank appropriate) and the knot is tied, not because the scout "remembers" the knot, but because he is used to tieing it, because he knows how to use it and uses it for non-scouting purposes. Why is a BOR not a retest? because the program is built on using the learned skills and the program designed so once the boys learn a skill, they can and do use it "all the time" so its not a case of, "gee I am a little rusty on that one" because the skill has been used. Now, if the scout hasnt been around alot, then they will need more work, but then again there's nothing that says a scout cant practice his scoutcraft skills outside of a scout meeting. (The horror, the horror). If you have 5 scouts in a row that can't tie a bowline or a knot du jour, then its time to examine the program and that should happen only once every 5 years or so, does that help?

Is that a Todd McFarlane reference

Would that mean I am OldGreyEagle P.I. (Poetic Instigator)? Actually, the reason why males die sooner than females and the reason why there is an emphasis on womens health and why hospitals open women health centers is basic economics. Women will use health care men will not. You go to a hospital, most of the patients are women because women will go to a physician, men like to "tough it out". Toughing out a heart attack (myocardial infarct) doesnt work well very often. Men will ignore symtoms far longer than women. If men sought out health care as women do, then the averages would change. I made my orignal statement to bring this out, please guys, if you are having a medical issue, dont ignore it, see a doctor, we have to stick around to pester each other.

Beavah and OldGreyEagle agreeing? In the words of Judy Tenuta "it could happen" Remember Hunt, I am talking about reviewing the program, not retesting the boy. I am with you that if the boy was signed off, he was signed off, although you may have sign off issues on which to focus

I will sorta repeat myself here. I see no problem is asking a scout to tie the dreaded bowline. Why? because its a review of the program as well as the scout. If you have 5 scouts in a row that can't tie a bowline, then you have a program problem as well as 5 scouts who cant tie a bowline. I would not fail the bowline deficient scout in the BOR, but I would be sure he learned the knot and perhaps taught it at the next opportunity. I see having scouts demonstrate scout skills at a BOR as proof of the programs effectiveness, not as a pass/fail for the scout.

Forrest Gumps feather?

I've always thought that a Board of Review was a review of the boys progress as well as the integrity of the troop's program. There is nothing I know of that prevents a BOR from throwing the scout a rope and asking him to tie a bowline, there is a problem if you fail the scout because he can't tie it. If you throw that "cursed" rope 5 times to 5 different scouts and none can tie the bowline, whats your first move? do you need to fail 5 scouts or figure out what's wrong in your knot tieing program? . BTW you could ask those 5 scouts to lead a knot tieing class in bowlines, french or otherwise after they have learned the knot. In the Scouting Magazine March-April 2006 issue, there was a feature in the "Front Line Stuff" titled "how best to inform a Scout (and his parents) that the boy wasn't fully prepared for a rank advancement board of review". I dont think the BSA would publish such a piece if you couldnt "fail" a scout. Check it out at http://www.scoutingmagazine.org/ and look for back issues. (N.B. one reader says no scout shoudl fail a Board of Review, not because it's BSA policy but because if the program is working, it shouldn't happen)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

You have one of the most powerful tools known to man. It's the scout sign. Use it frequently to get control. Up goes the sign, and dont talk until eevryone is quiet, if there is more noise, put the sign up and wait. yes, its maddening but it will get results you have to stick with it.

SueM, my reference is the BSA publication #33088, and it does not mention any "District" option. It goes through great lengths explaining the process if a boy does not pass the BOR, but never says that a District says you can't fail a BOR. Perhaps they mean that a boy can't fail a Board of Review because if a decision is made not to advance the boy, the boy is given specific steps to take to pass and a subsequent BOR is scheduled with a letter going to the boy and scoutmaster so one could say the BOR was not "failed", it was adjourned to a scheduled time in the future

There has got to be some story behind this, do you have any background?

Aha Mr Longhaul, women have a longer life expectancy every step of the way yet all we hear about is the medically underserved woman and that the hospital is opening another womens health service/clinic meanwhile men are dropping like flies...

How about a research project question, in the United States today, what is the average life expectancy of a male? of a female?

After reading this and the PM you sent Beavah, I think I understand. I think its in a persons philosophical approach. You see inconsistencies and appear to conclude that since these are unclear, all policies are flexible. I look at the same inconsistancies and try to do the right thing given the circumstances but when clear cut direction is given, then I want that direction followed, perhaps because there are so many grey areas. It is also a testimonial of a persons view of the world. You seem to hold that volunteers do what they do for altruistic reasons and should be unconditionally supported. My experince has not been that way. I understand your approach is a much brighter outlook, but I have met too many individuals who are in it for themselves and not the youth. I'll try to be more positive in outlook

here are pictures of his project, he is the lad with the walker http://www.troop362.com/2006_bt_eagle_project.htm

to verify check the following link, http://www.scouting.org/boyscouts/supplemental/18-125/index.html it should take you to a web page on the National Council website that indicates the following: * There is no time limit for completion of merit badges, but all work on merit badges must be completed before the Scout's 18th birthday. To those who think this is rule spouting, I do not apologize, a question was asked and answered(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)