OldGreyEagle

Eammon, at least you know now what you did was not quite right. Think of those who do it every year and have no problem with their actions, are they under pressure? have an ego trip scheduled? Who was it that said we have met the enemy and he is us? (Walt Kelley-Pogo)

remember to add the rabbits only as a last, last , last resort as most people object to finding hare in their stew (Sorry, I had to do it)

this is the shorthand answer, no, the scoutmaster can't retract advancement.But somehow I think there is a who lot missing from your first post, so, what happened that led you to your posting?

Hey Antelope Dude, from the Guide to Safe Scouting we find the statement: No secret organizations. The Boy Scouts of America does not recognize any secret organizations as part of its program. All aspects of the Scouting program are open to observation by parents and leaders. If all aspects of the program are open to parents and leaders, then all parents and leaders have to be allowed to observe all activities which means "mere" parents are going to be covered by BSA insurance if they are injured on a scouting event. They have a right to observe the program and don't have to be registered leaders to "observe".

You mean like when we call to the Quartermaster, Hey Al, packa the stuff up on the trailer?

I know its a wonderful program, it's hard to build something that youth will want to come to if the Venturing Vision is not shared betwixt Volunteer and Professional, and that Vision is not being shared in a lot of places

Actually I think RangerT (Welcome BTW) has hit the Venturing Connundrum. First he states ". First most councils do not understand the Venturing program well enough to support it." Then in the same post expresses the opinion "Contrary to how you may feel Venturing can work, the sky is not falling." RangerT, if most Councils do not understand the Venturing Program well enough to understand it, then how can anyone say the sky is not falling? If the institution that is supposed to bring the program to the volunteers doesnt have a grasp on the program, how can they support those of us who do, or rather think we do? I served as a Council Venturing Chairman, it was quite an eye-opening experience. I was asked if the Venturing group could function as "security" for a Council wide event and the person who asked me didnt take to well to my answer that Venturing was a program that was attending to enjoy the event, not work it. Then there was an outcry that few Crews showed up to the event. I guess the Arts and Hobbies Crews didnt see a reason to camp overnight, and neither do I. I asked the Council Training Chairman if he could help with Training Venturing Advisors and was told, "we can't right now, your numbers dont justify it, but when you grow we will consider it" Ya know when our numbers grow, we wont need their help, its when we are small that we need help. I am a ADC for Venturing in my District. I am the only Venturing COmmissioner. I have asked three people to be Venturing COmmissioners and all three have declined. Thats the only 3 people who have delined anything I have asked as I generally only committments from people who I think will honor them. I beleive in the Venturing concept, but until the Pros of the Council take the Venturing training and the Council Committee decides it will really support it, Venturing will go nowhere. Now, if you are in an area that gets Venturing support I am very happy for you and I my wish for you is to enjoy it, it must be great and I hope to someday share that feeling.

I agree that making training more available could nothing but help, perhaps more of the policy & procedure training could be done online like Youth Protection is now. I can see that obviously things like Outdoor Skills cant be done online, but all the book learnin' certainly should be

Just a stab in the dark, but the wording is to keep a scout from obtaining all 20 nights of camping on family trips, away from his Troop, just a thought on my part. Then again, I could be wrong... I like the use of the topographical map, maybe all the ranting of getting scouting back to its roots of outdoor adventure has made an inroad?

Seeing as there is no required element of an Eagle Court, if it doesnt make sense then dont do it. A good ceremony that provides an opportunity for a scout to thank a lot of people is the "Picture Ceremony" You may wish to have OJ consider it

So, back in the say, this kindly old priest took on a recently released convict, the ex-con tried hard, but as an establablished member of the underworld, old habits were hard to break. Finally, one Sunday while looking at the collection basket and noticing it was full of cash, rings, watches and like the kindly old priest spoke up " For the last time, its Dominus vobiscum, not Dominic go frisk 'em"

Then again, the mid 60's were when I was an altar boy, first one in my class to learn all the latin to serve at mass, so my reward was to tbe the first in my class to serve mass. At 6:30am, just what I wanted, walk to the church, serve mass and then walk home just to walk back, and I will have you know it was 10 miles, uphill both directions and snowing. Then again, as it was the mid 60's and James Bond was all the rage, I could pretend I was the secret agent from Vatican City, Et Cum Spiri, 2 2 0...

I brought up having a six inch knife in a pocket. I would not carry a 6 inch 1/2 inch dowel in my pocket, let alone a sheath knife, or a folding knife that measures 6 inches when folded. Its a safety/comfort movement thing. You wanna hang a 12 inch sheath knife from a belt, no problem from me. I have an 18 inch or so sheath knife on my living history ceinture as Pierre the Voyageur. Ask me about my tuque I wear in honor of Uncle Earl

I was/am a Lion of the older 60's variety, why does the BSA do a lot of the things they do, Venture Patrols, Venturing Crews, The knots that Venturing uses look an awful like the old Explorer knots, wait a minute, they ARE the old explorer knots. I guess to be kind one could say they recycle names to pay homage to the past

for the benefit of others, here is the passage from the Guide to Safe Scouting: "A sharp pocketknife with a can opener on it is an invaluable backcountry tool. Keep it clean, sharp, and handy. Avoid large sheath knives. They are heavy and awkward to carry, and unnecessary for most camp chores except for cleaning fish. Since its inception, Boy Scouting has relied heavily on an outdoor program to achieve its objectives. This program meets more of the purposes of Scouting than any other single feature. We believe we have a duty to instill in our members, youth and adult, the knowledge of how to use, handle, and store legally owned knives with the highest concern for safety and responsibility. Rememberknives are not allowed on school premises, nor can they be taken aboard commercial aircraft. References: Boy Scout Handbook, Fieldbook, Bear Cub Scout Book, and Wolf Cub Scout Book" http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/gss09.html#g So, there is no prohibition against sheath knives, only a caution that they are unsafe. Just the fact the knife fell out of a scouts pocket tells me a few things. First off I have to make a few assumptions (and we all know about what happends when we assume, but then again, we do that here all the time collectively so I take I am amoung friends). The scout had a sheath knife in his pocket, now to me that is dangerous, I dont know how long it was, but even at a 3 inch blade with a 3 inch handle, I am not sure how the scout could even sit down, let alone walk with any comfort with an object of six inches in his pocket.. The sheath knife is designed to be worn on a belt where it is readily available and doesnt encumber body movement. If youth members are going to have sheath knives, wouldnt it be a good idea to at least have them worn correctly? The next part is why did the scout have the knie along? As the Guide states, a large sheath knife is of no practical use in a camp except to clean fish and even then a the fillet knife from your kitchen is a better bet. The overall idea would be to have your youth make the correct selection of tool up front taking into account what jobs are needed to be preformed and what is the necessary tool rather then banning something outright

I used to be a big proponent of having the AO allow Venturers in, both male or female, even going so far as to accusing the OA to be a bunch of knuckle dragging misogynists but I have changed my tune. The OA is the National Camping Honor Society for Boy Scouts. Not all Ventureres are "Campers", Crews who do Sports, Arts and Crafts, Religious Life or even a Sea Scout Ship may have a hard time meeting the Camping requirements of the OA, and by no means do I think anyone wants to see a relaxation of the joining requirements ot the OA. A male can join the boy scouts at ages 10 -11, Venturers join at 14. If you look at the Camping requirements, it takes what, 24-36 months to get the necessary Camping expereince in then what? You have 12-13 boys doing the ordeal with 16-17 year old girls. I am sure this is just what both age groups want to do. If I am wrong on the age estimates, there still will be an age gap in males/females with the girls being older by 4 years. To me, its bad enough that a male youth can join Venturing as a first class scout, drop registration with a Troop and become an Eagle through the Crew while a young lady does not have that option. Why not leave Eagle and all things connected with Boy Scouts to Boy Scouts and if necessary have Venturing come up with its own Honor Society, something that would appeal to all 5 branches of Venturing, not just campers. There are so many misconceptions on the differences between a Venture Patrol and Venturing. Obviously the similarity in the names dont help, having male Venturers run around with boy scout ranks in their green shirts doesnt help, and if the OA becomes the Venturers Honor Society, why even pretend we are a separate program when there is so much cross over? Maybe the four regional presidents and National president of Venturing should be given a charge to develop a national Venturing Honor Society that appeal to all branches

To go on a High Adventure "trek" is a privilege and to earn that privilege the unit should have a list of prerequisites, these items are going to center around the required equipment and training trips. If its Philmont, what is your training regimen and what attedance requirement are you putting on it? In the Troop of my youth when we went to High Adventure places you had to "earn" the hiking merit badge, whether you had it or not. You had to take the hikes as preparation and attend scheduled outings. There were of course scouts who due to one reason or another who did not make all the schedules activities, but upfront there was a requirement that if you missed a hike or outing you were to contact the trip leader to arrange a "make-up" event. If you have your behavior parameters in place up front, then scouts with bad behavior, bad attitude, etc. wont meet the requirements for the trip

I don't see any reason to place a limit on attending Wood Badge, we don't have an age requirement on Eagle, I see no need to place a restriction on adults. I have seen many over 50 year olds too immature to understand the concepts of Wood Badge, but they took the course nonetheless. Maybe it will be over some 18-21 year olds heads, then agaon maybe not, if the leader is trained and wants to do it, what reason could we give/ You are not old enough? You need more seasoning? Not something I would want to say or have said to me

Maybe some of the legal hounds can help me, I also have had run ins with people who are afraid of identity theft and cite sources all over the place on how common it is and I dont dispute it takes place. What I do question is the habits of those who claim to be identity theft aware, I wonder how many of them never go to a restaurant where the server takes your credit/debit card "away" and then returns with it 10 minutes later with a receipt for you to sign. What happaned while your card was in coustody of the server? Were numbers copied? Signatures copied? How is this practice safe in an identity theft aware world? We need a credit card to rent a car, even if you end up paying in cash, they have your Credit card number and ID, or if a debit card they very well could ascertain your "Security Code" with a key recording program, how safe is safe?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

So, Beavah, what you are stating is when the speed limit is 25 MPH and you really need to get to the corner store, get the milk and get back before halftime is over, then its ok to go 50 MPH, because there are time when rules aren't important? I don't dispute that you were told what you were told, but it does degrade an already fairly jaundiced view of professionals that I hold and is slipping rapidly. As I stated in my post, I gace what the rules are, if they don't have to be followed, why have them? It's not a question of authority and rules, it's being a good citizen of the program. If the dating rules are a lot looser than is published, why not publish them? Such things are the reason why there are so many "urban legends" in scouting. I for one have just about had it, if the ground moves this easy, why bother?

I understand reasons for patrol cooking, but then again, I think Mess Hall dining has its place. Having all the scouts in camp together for announcements is handy, although I could see someone claiming destruction of the Patrol Method at the expense of expediency and I can see their point. I see how having the camp together promotes a more community like atmosphere as all the troops see one another and scouts are able to converse with them and the staff. Some of the best memories of camp are the songs/cheers done at the end of each meal as the staff reveal their personalities. I know mess hall dining isnt the best, but it does have some redeeming characteristics.

Acco, Shooting Sports and Aquatic Directors have to be 21 or older by BSA Camp School standards, just for future reference. As far as maturity goes, did the kids at Jonesboro realize they were killing kids? I dont know, they only shot girls and the lady teacher so they knew what their target was but does that prove anything? They are due out soon, was this enough of a punishment? Too much? Not enough? Does putting a financial lien against the scouts or the parents do anything but destroy lives, then again, maybe a few more destroyed lives is called for. What was the nature of the "fooling" around with fire, did one counselor try to stop the horseplay only to be met with a call of "hey leave us alone and we will give you a skittle", do we know what was said? What is the background of the participants, any records? Brushes with authority? Probably things we wont know because they are juveniles. Did the BSA play with fire? No, but a group of people who belong to the BSA did and just what do we do? Have the 17 join the National Forest service and spend the rest of their lives recovering burnt forests? But if we say they are just kids, what license are we granting?(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I don't know about scaring Miss Jenn away, but she did ask what the rules are. Lets go with what we know. She said she thinks the idea of a Venturing Crew is cool, so we know she is a decent right thinking individual. We know one of the leaders is her fiancee, as in not married yet but he promises to do so, so talk about what a husband and wife can do while in a Venture Crew is wildly out of place. To be an adult leader in a Venture Crew, the lucky young man has to be 21 or older, for Jenn to be contemplating joining, then she must be under 21. I know its conjecture, but I think my logic is sound. So taking the above to be true, The soon to be Mr Dragonn is over 21 and she is under 21 then the rules are clear, only one can be in the Crew because of the Youth Protection rules found in the Boy Scouts of America Youth Protection Guidelines for Adult Venturing Leaders Training Guide found here: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/ypt/pdf/25-026.pdf Check out item 10 on page 2 where it states: The roles of volunteer adult leaders in the Venturing program require that clear boundaries be established between adult leaders and youth members. For this reason, fraternization the formation of peer-based, social relationships between adult and youth members is not permitted. This prohibition extends to Venturing crewmembers who register as adults after their twenty-first birthday. This is also covered in the videotape on Youth Protection for Venturing Leaders, simply put you can't have an adult leader and a youth member dating. Whether or not we may think it makes sense, is right or enforceable, the question originally posed was regarding the rules "to this one". What happens next is up to Jenn, and the soon to be Mr Jenn.

Actually, it is permitted for a Boy Scout who is also a registered Venturer to double dip in a few areas, such as while working on the Backpacking merit badge and Backpacking elective for Ranger/OutDoor Bronze the youth could use a single backpacking trip and apply it towards both. Similarly, a Boy Scout Venturer could work on the First Aid merit badge and core course in First Aid at the same time so perhaps I may have to rethink my position

They crossed the bridge, they left Cub Scouts behind and entered Boy Scouts. DO we now say when they crossed the bridge they left Cub Scouts behind, but not these activities that will count for Tenderfoot? Do the activities they attended while a Webelos with the troop count as a troop activity for advancement? Cubs is Cubs, Boy Scouts are Boy Scouts and that should be that. If this means the physical requirements for Boy Scouts need to be changed, then they need to be changed