OldGreyEagle

It's a little known fact that Julius Caesar did not die from stab wounds by Brutus, but, rather, was poisoned. During a sumptuous banquet which they both attended on that fateful Ides of March, Brutus slipped some poisonous hemlock leaves onto Julius' salad. (Thus making the world's first Caesar's salad - no, that's not the joke, wait for it....) When Julius slumped over into his salad, Brutus feigned concern and asked, "My dear friend Julius, how many hemlock leaves have you eaten?" To which Julius gasped in reply: "Ate two, Brute." Then again: Trevora Trevori Trevorum Semper Ubi sauna sub Ubi perubique

"OGE, Color me confused. I will attribute that to the nature of forum postings, which do not always lend themselves to conveying complete or intended meanings." I will try another run at it, I understand I dont always explain myself as well as I should "Your statement in your last post "...[we]tell scouts who dont come on many activities that to advance they have to be active, the scouts decide by their actions what happens. Those who attend advance, those who dont attend stall. It's their choice." reflects a position that I did not find evident in your post on Gerald Ford/Bill Bradley, which seemed to imply that they would have been too busy with football/basketball to meet scouting participation expectations." What I was trying to say was, if the troops that Ford and Bradley belonged to had attendance requirements, would these two been able to earn Eagle? Gerry Ford was a great friend to Scouting. What if he missed "too many" meeting and activities and was dropped from his troop. Would he still have been the resource to scouting he turned out to be? I didnt mean to question their level of participation, only that they had competing interests and managed them. Could they have managed them in a troop that expects 80% attendance. They had to have had understanding adult leaders. "Also, in another thread on scout spirit, I read into your post that we should measure scout spirit solely against what a scout defines it to be. As I don't recall anything in your post that a SM could/should counsel a scout with low definition of scout spirit to raise his standards and then demonstrate living by them before the SM signed off on the scout spirit requirement, I hope you can see why I was confused." If you read that post on Scout Spirit, I cited what the scouting handbook says about Scout Spirit. The question I was asking, and again I apologize that it was a clumsy wording, if the scout asks you why they have to attend X% of troop activities or they dont "pass" scout spirit and none of the sections explaining Scout Spirit in the handbook says anything about Troops expecting some percentage of attedance, how do you answer them? On page 108 of the scout handbook it says "...How well you live the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your life, though is something for you to judge..." I am not saying what I think, I posted what is written, how do you explain to scouts that you dont follow this statement? If the scout says "I have excellent Scout Spirit" and you counter that he was seen lighting cats on fire, or bullying kids at school then you have a real discussion on your hands. "I am glad to read that you do have participation expectations for a scout to advance, which had not been apparent in earlier posts." Where did I ever say that a scout didnt have to participate? They have to fulfill the requirements, I am not sure how I could say it better. They have to know their stuff, they have to do the requirements. I just dont understand why you would drop a scout if he attended 15 out of 20 activities because the troop mandates 80% or 16 out of 20.

On all days a scout is always prepared, but today one also needs to beware

My point was Ford and Bradley had to have missed some Scouting activities when they played sports. Could they have met the attendance requirements of your troop or would they have been asked to make a choice, sports or scouts. And the fact we are talking Ford and Bradley scares me, where are the 25-40 year old Eagle scouts who are also athletes, why don't we hear about them, or is it because it's one thing or the other? And where in the history of the forum have I ever said a scout doesnt have to do the requirements? Where have I ever said the scout advances even if he doesnt know his stuff? In the Troop I serve we dont tract attendance any more than to tell scouts who dont come on many activities that to advance they have to be active, the scouts decide by their actions what happens. Those who attend advance, those who dont attend stall. It's their choice. Scouts who have PORs have the position explained to them at the earliest onset and then progress tracked, if they aren't doing the job, they get warned, counseled, removed. I am not sure where anyone who has read any of my posts would think I was in favor of degrading the program. We offer the program, those interested will take advantage of the opportunities, those who arent, wont and the interested ones will advance

I was paging through the Scouting Magazine and saw pictures of Gerald Fords Funeral. I was thinking, seeing as Mr Ford played a lot of Football, I wonder if he would last in a Troop that had a percentage attendance requirement? Could Gerry Ford make Eagle in your Troop? What about Bill Bradley? He played a little basketball, I am sure he missed many scouting events yet he is an Eagle. Are attendance requirements chasing away members we will have wanted to have? then again, we will never know

Wow Acco, so well written, did you have that copyrighted? I would like to use it as well...

Wow, a difference of opinion, who knew?

Trying to decide which words are acceptable will drive you looney, if you adopt the principle that the scouts can use the vocabulary of a designated scouter(s) then you dont have to worry about it, providing of course the designee's can control their lexicon of spoken words. Never had much use for a "cuss cup" the existence of a "cuss cup" tells the scout while cussing is not proper, its expected and everything is ok as long as you pay your quarter. So, at the college interview, the scout says "I really want to get in here, it's such a great F***ing school, oops, where is your cuss cup, I owe a quarter"(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Could you invite them to your house for dinner or an internet cafe so they could get trained?

It may be a good idea to get from the PLC a composite of what they are looking for in a Scoutmaster, what traits they proze and which they do not. Not so much as for selection, but to give the new Scoutmaster a glimpse into what the scouts would like. Adherence to these guidelines is of course voluntary

Items to test on a Campout Moss only grows on the north side of trees Water in the Northern Hemishere always drains clockwise You get less wet by running in the rain Yawning is "contagious" Lightning never strikes the same place twice

In the District I serve we have had 10 DE's in 10 years. ANd that includes an 18 month stretch without one. Many of us have no idea what an DE does since we have never seen one long enough to find out.

No, a troop cannot require a percentage of attendance and would have any denial overturned on appeal to the Advancement Committee of Disitrct, Council, etc. but the greater question is, would a scout appeal? What would be the fall out? What lesson are we teaching?

so a scout who does not attend campouts, summer camp, eagle project and most troop meetings shows no less scout spirit then those that attend nearly everything activly? If you read my original post you will note I did not define what I thought was Scout Spirit, I only quoted what the Boy Scout Handbook says about Scout Spirit. If we want to debate whether or not the Handbook is wrong, I suppose we could do that, we have examined its weaknesses on other threads. To reach First Class a scout must participate in 10 separate troop/patrol activities, 3 of which have to include camping overnight so the scout has to have attended campouts. He has to be able to tie his knots and demonstrate them he has to be able to complete the BSA Swimmer test. I dont recall anything that said he didnt have to meet the specified requirements. For Star, Life and Eagle there are the Positions of Responsibility. If the scout does not adequately perform in those roles, then they are removed from them and do not receive credit for the Position. A post stated You cant get eagle through correspondence. . In the Program followed by the Troop I serve, the Camping meritbadge is required to earn the rank of Eagle, One of the requirements is to Camp a total of at least 20 days and nights. Using a week of long-term camp toward this requirement. Sleep each night under the sky or in a tent you have pitched (long-term camp excluded). So I dont think the correspondence method of earning Eagle will be in vogue any time soon. I have an idea, rather than try to explain why a Troop should be able to set percentage attendance requirements, and other self generated methods of scout spirit measurements, lets try this, A scout comes to you with the quotes I initially posted, he wants to know why the book says one thing about Scout Spirit and the Troop does something completely different. What do you tell him?

It appears the Troop is going to the Camp the boy decided to go as a troop. Any scout or parent can talk up going elsewhere as a provisional camper, I see that as free speech. Is there a thought the number of provsional campers will take away from the troop camp experience? I dont see a problem, yet... As long as the boy go where they planned, its good

Of all the topics we fuss and feud over, the measuring of Scout Spirit has got to be in the top 2 or so. I want to take another run through it, using the scout handbook as my source. The following is what the scout handbook says about Scout Spirit: Scout Spirit Defined p 47 Scout Spirit refers to the effort you make to live up to the ideals of Scouting. The Oath, Law, Motto, and Slogan serve as everyday guidelines for a good life. Tenderfoot, Requirement #13 p60 discuss scout spirit with your scoutmaster and with older boy scouts in your troop. Ask them for examples of how you can demonstrate Scout Spirit . You will likely hear examples of the Scout Oath and Law as ways to show your Scout spirit Second Class Requirement #9 p108 Most requirements for Scout ranks can be measured by other people. When you set out to swim 50 feet for the Second Class swimming requirement, anyone can see that you have covered the distance. How well you live the Scout Oath and Scout Law in your life, though is something for you to judge. You know when you are being kind, when you are helpful and a good friend. You know when you are trustworthy. and reverent. You alone know how you act when no one is around to witness what you do. Do the best you can to live each day by the Scout Oath and Law. You might look back on some of the decisions you've made and wish you had acted differently, but you can learn from those moments and promise yourself you will do better in the future. And dont be surprised that when you use the scout oath and law for guidance, others will recognize those values in you and respect you for it. Set high standards for yourself and strive to reach them. No one can ask anymore of you First class Requirement #10 p164 At troop and patrol gatherings you've recited the Scout Oath and the Scout Law dozens of times. The words come easily to you, but do you know what those words mean? The Scout Oath and Scout Law are not just for reciting at meetings. They are not just to be obeyed while you are wearing a uniform. The spirit of Scouting that they represent is every bit as important when you are at home, at school and in your community. The Scout Oath begins with the words, "On my honor. . ." Your honor is your word. By giving your word, you are promising to be of good character and to keep your reputation untarnished. Be trustworthy in all you say and do. Extend friendship to others. Be thrifty with your time and resources. Be tolerant of others, regardless of their differences, and celebrate the great diversity that enriches our nation and the world. Express reverence in accordance with your beliefs. Offer a helping hand because you want to, not because you expect a reward. The standards set by the Scout Oath and Scout Law are very high Strive to reach them every day, and you will find that they become as natural for you to live by as they are for you to say. Star/Life/Eagle p170 BY NOW, DOING GOOD TURNS should be a regular part of your life You are always on the lookout for ways to help others. By now, Be Prepared should describe your efforts to make the most of educational opportunities, get along with others, and take part in outdoor adventures. By now, the Scout Oath and the twelve points of the Scout law should be the guidelines by which you direct your actions in your family, community, church, school, and nation. Living by these high standards is always a personal choice and something only you can fully measure. But by now, many other people should be seeing qualities in you that make it clear you are choosing If this is the information given the Scout about Scout Spirit, how are attendance percentages set? When the book says the scout is the one who determines if he is living the Oath and Law, how can a Scoutmaster decline to sign off a scout on Scout Spirit because the Scoutmaster doesnt think the scout is ready? I apologize to those who see this as pedantic, iconoclastic, arrogant book thumping, but I would like to see the responses

The question of Scout Spirit rears its' ugly head again. And since this deserves a separate thread, it shall have one.

In the By the Book Troop, the Boys of the Troop decide which summer camp they will go too. Having said that, if the Troop in question is from, say Orlando, Florida and they have had enough of say Mickey Mouse and want to attend summer camp up in Alaska, well then the Troop Committee and Scoutmaster may have something to say about it. Can you give details about the situation, I feel there is more...

Don't give up on the "second place finish". Maintain contact with the Troop they did cross over to, if they stop comming and drop out, perhaps you could have them visit you for a bit.

The Troop I serve had a similar problem, terrible language. I noticed it when my son and I joined it. It seems it was so prevalent, it didnt register with the leaders, until I pointed it out. There followed failed attmepts to cure the issue until I hit on a tactic. I told the scouts that they could use any word they heard me say, and if you read this forum, you know I know lots of words, some I even use correctly. There followed a period of time where everything I said was closely monitored by the youth, especially that time my thumb somehow ended up underneath the hammer I was using to drive nails on an Eagle project. The uttered "wow" somehow didnt do justice to the throbbing thumb I had. But the other adults helped, when they heard "bad" language they would say, something like "I never heard Mr OldGrey say that so until he does, you cant either". The issue cleared up.

Gee, and I thought Ward was tough on the Beaver...

Well, look at it this way, at least we all know what the word schism means. I always knew there was a degree of animosity between Professional Scouters and Volunteers. But is it as bad as it appears in the High Cost of Scouting Executives thread? Is there really that much of a difference betwen "Us" (Volunteer scouters who only have the best interest of the Program and youth in mind) and "Them" the Professional Scouters (Bottom dwelling sludge eaters who only went into professional scouting for the apparently exorbitantly high salaries) Do you actually feel that way or is it some of it venting due to other issues?

One of the more interesting things I get from the Forum is a sense of the diversity the Scouting Program has throughout the country. Just because it's done a certain way in a Council or District doesnt mean thats the way its done everwhere, and sometimes it's hard to remember that. Now, in my Day Job, I am a Medicare Chargemaster Compliance Consultant. I help hospitals understand Medicare rules and guidelines regarding billing practices and since Medicare uses the same guys who author the IRS tax code, the clarity I would like is not always present. Every once in awhile there are specific rules written and while a hospital may not like it, its my job to let them know what the rules are, whether or not they follow it is between them and the GAO. So in that spirit, I offer the following: According to BSA Publication 33088, "Advancement Committee Polcies and Procedures" it is the District/Councils' responsibility to recruit merit badge counselors, train merit badge counselors, and maintain the merit badge counselors list. I maintain the list for the District I serve as I am on the Advacnement Committee. Another person on the Committee reviews the Advacement Reports from our District and notifies Troops if they are using non-registered Merit Badge Counselors so in our Distrct, this is a "big deal". I would hate for future readers of this thread to think all Councils/District are as haphazard as has been described. I also have a full understanding of John Spartan's advice to Edgar Friendly and the Police Chief. Isnt fun to compare how things are done in other places?

"Maybe we can avoid the constant bickering ..." And in the words of the immortal Wayne Campbell; "... and monkeys might fly out of my butt!" Party On Ed Party On Merlyn(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

You may be able to guess my suggested question already, but here goes: Do you have a MySpace page; YouTube Page: If yes then What would I see if I went to it right now? Would I know you are a Boy Scout? If you become an Eagle, will it be on the page? What would you tell a new scout just starting to post on the internet?