OldGreyEagle

Personally I wonder if Harry Haenderson's Scoutmaster is John Lithgow You know while Sasquatch stew will feed 30 scouts, if you have 32 scheduled for dinner you can stretch the stew by adding a rabbit although some people object to finding a hare in their Sasquatch stew

At times the Forum asks questions which tend to stick with ya And at other times you can't wait to get out of here But you must admit When you think of it That only today would you feel like friggatriskaidekaphobia

Hey, as I am about to go off and staff a COllege of Commissioner Science this weekend, I resemble that comment, and will keep a look out for the Big Foot

Yumpin' Yimminy, I suggested a tweak? ::as dumbfounded a look as I possess:: The way the New Scout Patrol was "taught" to me was with the rotating Patrol leader, for one month so each new scout could go to a PLC meeting, be a Patrol Leader for one campout and manage the patrol for 4 meetings Thats not how it's supposed to be? The guy lied to me? Well, thats it, back to my Child of the 60's mode where I question all authority all the time... I throw myself on the altar of the BSA police and beg forgiveness (if I am wrong that is, of course)(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Kudu, I dont understand your point, then again, dont understand a lot of things. From the BSA website I found this description of a New Scout Patrol: New-Scout patrols are for 11-year-old Scouts who have recently joined the troop and are together for the first year in the troop. An older, experienced Scout often is assigned as a troop guide to help the new-Scout patrol through the challenges of troop membership. An assistant Scoutmaster should also assist the new-Scout patrol to ensure that each Scout has every opportunity to succeed right from the start. You have the appointed Troop Guide, the experienced scout whom is the role model for the patrol, so whether you call him an appointed patrol leader or appointed troop guide I dont see a difference. You express trepidation at the assigment of the ASM, but is there any difference between what this ASM does in a larger troop (over 20 scouts) versus what the scoutmaster would do in a smaller troop? The New Scout Patrol ASM lends support to the Patrol Guide when he needs it, it doenst mean he runs the New Scout Patrol anymore than a Scoutmaster runs a troop. I know the prospect of an 11 year old patrol leader lends itself to much mirth and merry making. But I have always thought that giving the new scout a taste of what it it like to be in charge is a very important lesson. Many times the scout will come to me and complain that no one in the patrol will listen to him, I offer sympathy and ask him if he paid much attention to the previous patrol leader or any boy leader for that matter, usually there is an "Aha" moment, where the boy realizes how he is perceived when he ignores direction from youth leaders. Some get it right away, others take longer and some most assuredly never get it. We had a rousing debate a few years back about whether or not you had to be a good follower before you could be a good leader. I dont know what side I was on then, but for the moment, its tough to command respect as a leader, if you personally cant take direction.

Here's a thought, or maybe just a different way to look at things. But are having a new scout patrol and permanent patrols ( to the scout)mutually exclusive? Lets say you have a gang of Gung Ho Webelos cross over and become the Official Boy Scout Patrol (OBS for short). For the first 12 months of it's existence, the OBS'ers operate as a new scout patrol. They have a Troop Guide and an ASM assigned to them and they rotate the Patrol Leaders job on a monthly basis until all have been in the position at which time they elect a permanent PL and the Troop Guide bids them a fond adieu. When the following years cross oversarrive, the OBS Patrol moves out of New Scout Patrol status and becomes a "regular patrol", they now participate in a different program, but they are still with their buddies. In three years, they graduate to the level of a Venture Patrol. The same eight scouts, in the same patrol, who have stayed together with the program that the troop offered to it changing as the boys matured

The greatest of all Wood Badge critters is the Bear All other critters note they are not one and Despair If you think about it It won't take but a bit To realize We are in a natural state eating and covered with hair(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

On March 31-April 1 I attended an Advancement Workshop sponsored by Patriots Path Council in New Jersey. It was staffed by two gentlemen from the National Advancement Committee. These two put on Advancement Training at Philmont. If you PM me I will give you their names. One of them made the comment that the publication "Advancement Committee Guide Policies and Procedures" was misnamed because there wasnt anything "Guide" about it, it is the Policy and Procedure of the BSA. Having said that, you can imagine there were lots of questions raised and answered. Some of the items I came away with is that Councils have a lot of autonomy in running their day to day operations. Yes, the Advancement Book says there is not limit to how many merit badges a counselor may counsel, or place a limit on how many a scout can earn from a counselor, but how would National know and what are they to do? To appeal a decision to National, the issue has to be either the scoutmaster or unit committee does not reccomend a scout for a Board of Review or the Scoutmaster or Unit COmmittee does not sign an Eagle Application. This is one (I know, looks like two to me) or The Board of Review does not advance the scout, this decision may be appealed. And that it. So, unless the reason a Board of Review is not held due to who counseled the merit badges, National is not going to be involved. I think the intent is clear. Its best to get 21 merit badges from 21 different people, that would be Adult Association at its best, but that may not be possible so there are no restrictions, Nationally. Even the Merit Badge Counselor Supplemental training module found on the BSA website says that there is not limit on how many badges a Counselor may counsel, it also immediately extols the virtures of multiple counselors. In the Troop I serve we have a "gentlemen's agreement" that no father will counsel his son for an Eagle Required merit badge unless its done in a group (with individual testing naturally)because we had a father sign his son off on about a dozen merit badges, he was registered for all of them but the kid didnt know much about any. We couldnt do anything, but we resolved to try to limit it in the future. If someone said to heck with you and did sign off like 6 Eagle required merit badges for their son, it would be, well ok. Thats all it can be. There has to have been an issue in the past to bring about this present "rule". Perhaps understanding the past would help in this instance. So, can the District set a Limit? Well, yes it can, it did didnt it? Will the limit stand an appeal? Probably not, but is it such a horrible limit? Do you want to involve a youth in the appeal process? What if the scout ages out and the appeal is denied? I echo Lisabob, is this a fight worth the effort, the worst thing that happens with this rule is the Scout is forced to have contact with multiple adults, is that so bad?

So it's better for me that to you I am a dog? I guess you could have said I was a hog But rather than continue to fight I think I will just curl up tight And read about Ahab,Ishmael,and the Pequod

I have always chafed at someone telling me how I am to express myself. I thought that was the biggest knock against Political Correctness. That in trying so hard not to offend, the message gets lost. Ed and I have had several disagreements over many issues, but I know with Ed, I never have to wonder "What does he mean by that?" I know. That is not to say one has license to be crude, obscene or vulgar either. One can call a spade a spade without calling it a @!#%!? shovel. We had a poster here who often said that a poster's message was as often conveyed by his style as well as what he said. I think that to be true.

I am not sure how Religious Awards for other Faiths are determined, I only know the process for Roman Catholic and the Moravians and these require a Scouter to be nominated, its not something a Scouter can "earn" as in do X, Y, and Z. I think the scouter should wear a youth religious knot if he earned it as a youth as an example to the youth and should wear the adult knot if he is recognized by his peers as being deserving. As I earned the Arrow of Light as a Cub, I wear that knot along with the Eagle Scout knot and the religious knot I earned as a Scout. I guess I could wear a Cub device and a Boy Scout device as I earned both the Parvuli Dei and the Ad Altare Dei but I eschew that I was nominated and received the Bishop's Award due to a fellow scouter's persistance so I wear that knot with the same pride as the District Award of Merit for which I was nominated by another fellow scouter. I also wear the Council Venturing Leadership Award knot as I was nominated for this honor by the youth members of the Crew, I wear it because if they wanted me to have this recognition, I feel I need to display what they did for me. Awhile back the Scoutmaster wanted to push the Boy Scout Training Knot, I put togehter a data base of what the adults in the troop had done and we got 6 awarded, of which I was one so I have 7 knots in total, all of which I wear on all uniforms.

So, what? Are you suggesting to you I am a Clown? You only see me as a way to dispel a frown? Take that back or you will see How much like Joe Pesci I can be And you dont want that kind of stuff to go down!

Havent numerous states and the federal corrections dept have had to set up Wicca worship facilities? If they have, then doesnt that imply goverment sanction of that belief system?

If we beleive the statement that minors do not have Civil Rights, then we need to impeach the Supreme Court for hearing the case of that kid from Alaska, you know, the "Bong Hits 4 Jeusus" guy. Quite sacriligeous to my way of thinking, but still legal, as it should be. As a child of the 60's, I beleive there were multiple Federal Court cases, some Supreme Court, some lower that had to do with schools and hair length, clothes as a political statement and oh yes, what was that last one? ::thinking:: ::thinking::, thats it, someone will have to help me here, but didnt some Court find that a minor child has a right to seek an abortion without informing her parents? And wasnt that decided because of Civil Rights?

::Looking over Forum:: where did that Ed and Merlyn Smackdown thread go now that we could use it? ::shrugs shoulders, oh well::

You know you have a great group of new scouts when: The parents tell you they hold up the sign to restore order in the class The teacher complains they were going to disect frogs and only the ones with Totin' Chip would touch the scalpel

Not to be too flip about it, but when a Country's military involvment ends in another country with scads of people being taken off the Embassy roof with thousands left behind to face a rather not so plesant future, its hard to say the country that left "won" according to anybody's definition

Thank you Ed for your time and efforts

Hey Gonzo, did you attend the National College of Chiropractic in Lombard?

I am not sure where the notion that unless the president had children in the Armed Forces he is unable to commit the Armed Forces to combat came from. Is this to be the new standard? That to run for president you have to have a child committed to the Armed Forces in a combat unit so if an armed incursion occurs that child is automatically deployed? How do the current list of candidates from both sides of the aisle stack up on this idea? Who has the child 19-30 yrs or so? When did this get added to the Constitution as a requirement of the presidency?

As I understand it, the service hours for rank, (not the Eagle project) are subject to Scoutmaster approval, so if you dont think its right to count the hours for work done for your unit, dont count them.

The the afore mentioned experience this is what we did. The SPL was quite dictatorial and short when talking to scouts, the scoutmaster talked to him multiple times alone, trying to take the edge off. When it became evident the scout was not changing his behavior, the scoutmaster had a couple of talks with the SPL with an ASM in attendance and they both took notes which they had the SPL sign, not showing approval, just an acknowledgement that the conversation took place. The SM then called the parents, the SPL's father was an ASM at the time. The SM went over the coversations with the father and showed him the signature acknowledging the conversations. The father understood what was at stake. We had had and comtinued to have complaints from boys and parents about the SPL's attitude and treatment of others. After a few more incidents, the SPL was told in person and backed up with a letter saying what behavior needed to be shown. It wasnt and he was told he was no longer the SPL. The question was as much for the benefit of the troop as anything else. The fallout? The scout was received by his "peers" as being "screwed" by the adults and was elected patrol leader of an older boy patrol. The younger kids who had complained the most were better off, they didnt bother the now ex SPL as he stayed with his older guy gang. As with any termination of employment for cause, the decision to remove him was not a surprise to him, he thought he could get away with it. I think he learned he couldnt do everything he wanted, and the younger boys saw not only did we care about the kids, you also had better do you job as its completion was not guaranteed.

There were many things scouting he wanted to know(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

I reread my post sometime after posting, I do feel I need a point of clarification. When I said the SPL wanted to be Patton, I did not mean to demean, degrade, or other wise defame General Patton, a brilliant leader and we were lucky to have him around in WWII. I meant to emphasize that Boy Scouts is not to have a rigid military leadership structure, that is all

In another thread it was commented that the poster wished the Scoutmaster still had the authority to "impeach" a scout from his POR. I dont know of any BSA publication that says that he can't. When a boy assumes a POR, the Troop is responsible to train the boy to do the job. The Troop is then responsible to be sure the boy is doing his job. There may be PORs that demand prescence at meetings and activities, there may be some that dont demand as much, but its up to the Troop, working with the boy, to develop a plan that is acceptable to both. That which gets the POR done to the benefit of the Troop and fits in with what the boy can do. if the boy is not living up to what he needs to do, this should be communcated to him, asked if he needs help, what can be done, what doesnt he understand. If the job isnt getting done becaue the boy "doesnt care" he can be removed from that job. I would be sure there is plenty documentation on the reason along with what support and coaching the boy received, but he still has to do the job and if he doesnt, he is gone, and before the end of his term of office, else it counts. We had an SPL who wanted to be Patton. He wanted to order the boys around. We talked to him, coached him, we had Troop Leadership Training with multiple team building exrecises and none of it took. He took over each time and wanted to dictate. After multiple scoutmaster conferences and a Board of Review, he was releived from the position. This should always be the last resort, the nuclear option as it were, but it has to be available(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)