OldGreyEagle

That Scouters can compose limericks may be imposing And this is just not something I am supposing I prefer Scouters to rhyme And wish that they do time after time Which is better than having them decomposing

A tough question, I remember having a thread with the title something along the lines of "Boy Lead or Boy Lead into the Ground"... But first, let me use hyperbole, you say you have a boy lead troop which is being lead away from scouting skills, what if the youth decided it wanted to do a Wine Tasting event or a Casino night complete with cigars and porn? What would you do? Go along with it because the Troop is boy lead or ask how the Troops program fits in with the Scout Oath and Law? How do the scouts see a Campout? As an opportunity to complete advancement requirements, a time to do fun and interesting things or as a vacation from home? Hopefully its to have fun and do interesting things and that they acheive advancement requirements along the way is a bonus. As camping is Eagle required, why not mention that and see what happens. Then again, having a tradition that Camping merit badge is earned through patrol campouts really isnt that bad either. Have any of your PLC attended NYLT? What type of training do they get? We once had a poster here who thought every minute of every campout should be dedicated to accomplishing some scouting goal, which may be extreme, but scouting is the reason for the outings, the fun and vacation from home is a side benefit.

If the scout or scouter is a member of the OA, of course they can wear it on their Venturing Uniform, as the OA is part of the BSA (ok, technically maybe it is, maybe it isn't, not important here) It's no different than a scout wearing his Arrow of Light, earned as a Cub on his Boy Scout uniform, or wearing a religious knot on his Boy Scout uniform for a recognition earned as a Cub. Or a Scoutmaster wearing his Cubmaster knot on his Scoutmaster uniform, or a Venture Crew Advisor wearing his Scoutmaster Key on his Venturing Uniform. Whether or not a Coed Program should allow the wearing of recognitions that only some of the members are allowed to earn, is another thread all together.

You say the scoutmaster has no say in anything, yet the reason for the thread is that the person who has no say is the one who has to approve an Eagle Court of Honor, is at the surface contradictory. What is your role in the Troop? Can you give any background?

You guys have pools? We have one central shower house with hot water if you get there early enough and a lake

Back in 2001 at the National Jamboree, the group "Three of Hearts" appeared during one of the shows. At one point, the three of them left the stage and came back wearing uniform tops, and by the look of the knots, adult uniform tops. Then the lead singer made a few comments that "could" have been deemed inappropriate. All in all it was a memorable show, for many reasons

To help fuel the black helicopters, which while we read this forum, are already massing at the Colorado/Montana border intent on dividing the country into 4 regions, the Northeast, South, Central and West with Ted Kennedy as the Grand Pooh-Ba of the Northeast and Jane Fonda in the West. The other positions are open, call 555 555 5555 and ask for Julius (immediate bonus points are given if you converse in Esperanto)

::looking downcast, rubbing sides of shoes in the dust:: Heck, I know Beav, but I saw such a wonderful opening, I had to take it Back on topic, if the troop committee wants to help out, either with troop or personnel funds, thats great. I would counsel them that they have to be sure to have great reasons why they won't help fund the next Eagle Project, whether its planting trees in the local neighborhood park or doing a week of Habitat for Humanity in Kualu Lumpur

define "home community" ? No man is an Island, entire of itself; every man is a piece of the Continent, a part of the main; if a clod be washed away by the sea, Europe is the less, as well as if a promontory were, as well as if a manor of thy friends or of thine own were; any man's death diminishes me, because I am involved in Mankind; And therefore never send to know for whom the bell tolls; It tolls for thee.

Bump for Beavah

Eamonn, the story doesnt say it, but he is also vice chief in the OA and has been on NYLT staff for 4 years, he is quite a kid. Then there is John Lahutsy mentioned in the article, do a search on Lahutsky for an article on his story I posted last mother's day(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

From the BSA web site: http://www.scouting.org/pubs/gss/ageguides.pdf At the bottom of page 2 is where Cope is mentioned. Low Ropes equals Low Elements, leastwise where I live it does. Kinda bugs me, cause if you have experienced people at a commcercial site, I am pretty sure they will be safety conscious and not do anything dangerous. SOunds line a great trip

Climb on Safely has nothing to do with the technical aspects of climbing, it only concerns the policies and procedures of a climbing event. From the BSA website, I found the following: 2. Qualified Instructors A qualified rock climbing instructor who is at least 21 years of age must supervise all BSA climbing/rappelling activities. A currently trained BSA climbing director or instructor is highly recommended. Contact your local council or regional service center to locate a qualified individual. The climbing instructor has successfully completed a minimum of 10 hours of instructor training for climbing/rappelling from a nationally or regionally recognized organization, a climbing school, a college-level climbing/rappelling course, or is a qualified BSA climbing instructor. The BSA offers a section of National Camping School for climbing directors who in turn can train climbing instructors. Every instructor must have prior experiences in teaching climbing/rappelling to youth and must agree to adhere to Climb On Safely and the guidelines set in Topping Out. Note: Any adult Scouter who successfully completes training in Climb On Safely is entitled to wear the temporary patch, No. 8631. A Climb On Safely Training Outline, No. 20-101, is available from your local council service center. http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=xx&c=ds&terms=climbing+instructor To become a BSA CLimbing Instrutor you have to take training from a BSA Climbing Director.(This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

The Troop of my Youth was a really happening organization. Eventually it was capped at 65 youth, (Since we were Troop 65, Wood Dale, Il)and each youth were expected to have a parent/guardian working in the Troop Committee or as an ASM. And we had a waiting list. I had mixed emotions about this as a youth, how could we limit our wonderful experience? As an adult, I understand. We blossomed to 92 at one point and didnt do a good job, hovering at 60 we do much better. I don't see how telling a Troop they have to take more boys than they can handle benefits anyone, Like "Dirty" Harry Callahan says "A man's got to know his limitations.", works for organizations as well (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Gonzo, the way I understand it, the requirement is for the scout to demonstrate he knows how to tie the knot. It is then up to the Troops program to place the scout in a situation to use that skill. In the scenario you describe I can see some troops setting up round robins on camp outs checking out that the scout can tie the knot. Wouldnt the better idea be to have the scouts on the campout use knots to make a monkey bridge, trebuchet, bridge or some other structure? If you teach me French for a year, and then I dont use for 5, how well do you think I will do in Paris in the middle of that 5th year? Once a skill is learned, it has to be used or it is lost, sorta Use it or lose it. If the Troop isnt sure of its members scout skills, then it should look into how it incorporates scout skills on outings, not focus on testing the scouts. Pack, are you asking the BSA to define what an acceptable belief system is?

Just before Summercamp a reading of "Lord of the Flies" always helps me understand camp dynamics Then in late summer "To Kill a Mockingbird" is good, and if you ever see the movie, that is Robert Duvall for about 45 seconds as Boo Radely when he was like 19 I have always been a Herman Hesse fan, when I read his books I feel like I can see a little old German man sitting in the corner telling me a story. "Demian" is a great comming of age book, and it has no rottweilers, "Steppenwolf" is a great thought provoking book, "Siddhartha" shows what happens when you make the use of your available resources, and then "Magister Ludi, or the Glass bead Game" is wonderful. Books to reas on a summer afternoon when you can take a break and contemplate I would like to say I would be thinking of re reading I Kant's "Critique of Pure Reason", but I havent gotten through it once as yet

A Scout's story: 'It's like being on top of a mountain' Bethlehem teen conquers challenges of cerebral palsy to earn Boy Scouting's highest honor. By Michael Duck Of The Morning Call Blake Tange's eyes flashed as he told stories about setting up tents in the middle of the night and sliding down snowy trails with his fellow Boy Scouts -- all part of the challenge of Scouting, but an even bigger test for the Bethlehem 17-year-old in Troop 362. Tange was born with a cyst filling half his brain cavity, leaving him with cerebral palsy and other medical conditions that make standing and walking difficult. But those challenges couldn't stop him from hiking, camping and knot-tying his way to a ceremony today where he'll be awarded the rank of Eagle Scout, an honor achieved by only 5 percent of Boy Scouts nationwide. Service: Led a team of 25 volunteers to create a wheelchair-accessible nature trail at a center for special-needs children. Leadership: Served as senior patrol leader (top youth leader in troop), quartermaster (in charge of troop camping equipment) and junior assistant Scoutmaster (assists adult leaders), among other positions. Skills: Earned 55 merit badges in subjects including camping, first aid, orienteering, personal fitness, wilderness survival and wood carving. (Twenty-one badges are required to reach Eagle Scout.) ''I've wanted to do this since I was in first grade,'' Tange said, beaming. ''It's like being on top of a mountain.'' Tange, a senior at Freedom High School, conquers hiking trails using off-road wheelchairs or walkers. For his Eagle Scout service project, he led 25 volunteers in clearing hundreds of square feet of brush to create a wheelchair-accessible nature trail at Camelot for Children, a center in south Allentown for special-needs children. Tange has also become one of Troop 362's most respected leaders and has earned 55 merit badges, more than twice the number needed to reach Eagle Scout. Asked which of those badges were his favorites, Tange paused for a moment, then grinned. ''Disability Awareness,'' he said. Cerebral palsy is a ''problem with muscle strength and coordination,'' explained Sally Haggerty of Bethlehem, one of the adult leaders in Troop 362 and also a pediatrician. The disorder makes it hard for Tange to control his leg movements while walking and limits his hand-eye coordination. For example, ''he really had to work hard'' to learn knots, Haggerty said, and he spent years working to improve his swimming in one-on-one sessions with her. Tange's brain abnormality was discovered soon after he was born, said his mother, Lynn Woolf-Tange. The family quickly realized his medical conditions didn't limit his intelligence or his social skills and signed him up for Scouting. Tange has thrived in the program for 12 years, starting as a Tiger Cub in first grade and progressing through Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts. ''It added a normalcy to his life,'' Woolf-Tange said. ''He's always kind of been the bridge between the special needs kids and the regular kids.'' Tange's peers in the troop of about 60 boys elected him as their senior patrol leader, a Boy Scout troop's top youth position. Tange went on to become a junior assistant Scoutmaster to help out the adult leaders. ''People ask advice: 'Blake, how should we do this?' And he'll have an answer almost all the time,'' said Scoutmaster Jim Roberts of Bethlehem Township. Current Senior Patrol Leader Jarrett Comer is one of many who's gone to Tange for pointers. Once, Comer said, he was faced with a mountain of dirty dishes and a group of boys who weren't about to clean it up. ''People were arguing, 'Who wants to do dishes or not,''' said Comer, a 15-year-old Liberty High School freshman from Hanover Township, Northampton County. Tange ''explained to me I should have gotten a duty roster set up,'' Comer said. He followed Tange's advice next time and assigned jobs in advance, and the dishes got cleaned a lot faster. Tange also tested his leadership skills with his Eagle Scout service project benefitting Camelot for Children, an organization that had helped him when he was younger. Because he enjoys the outdoors so much, he decided to create an ''enchanted woods'' where children without off-road wheelchairs could still enjoy nature, he said. For at least a month of weekends, Tange led 25 volunteers in clearing brush out of woods near Camelot's building. ''They mulched it and planted it and [put in] birdfeeders and wind chimes,'' said Jo Ellen Moll, Camelot's executive assistant. ''It's just beautiful back there.'' Tange's Eagle Court of Honor today will celebrate the success of the project and his Scouting career. Haggerty and Roberts will also be recognized during the afternoon ceremony, at Bethlehem's East Hills Moravian Church, for their work with special-needs Scouts like Tange, said officials of the Minsi Trails Council, which oversees Troop 362. Tange's friend John Lahutsky, who also has cerebral palsy, joined in the preparations for the Court of Honor by helping fellow Scouts make chili for the reception after the ceremony. Lahutsky, 17, of Bethlehem Township called Tange ''a real good guy'' and maybe a bit of an inspiration, too: Lahutsky also plans to become an Eagle Scout. http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-a1_4scout.5844060may12,0,604731.story?coll=all-news-hed

Whether its a Charter Public School, or a regular Public School, the question is can an atheist student attending that school join an organization that the school owns and runs?

The Troop I serve routinely sends multiple scouts to NYLT, this year we had 3 youth serve on staff slong with 2 adults. The troop pays half of the course with the scout being responsible for the other half. A few years back we had a scout commit to go to NYLT and then the day before decided not to go and didnt tell anyone. The Scoutmaster didnt know the youth wasnt there and only found out on Friday night when they had the "Graduation" ceremony. After much discussion at the next Troop Committee meeting, the absent scout was "billed" for the money the troop paid. Had he told the scoutmaster, perhaps another scout could have gone. I know we got many comments on the decision, all supportive, but mostly based on the fact we made the youth accountable for his actions

I do not think when presenting an argument much good comes from deriding the character of your opponent. I am not sure how well Einstein's Theory of Relativity was first received, but I am not sure many dismissed it because it was from that jew who lives in New Jersey. I am not sure Al Gore is right or wrong on GW, but just because I agree with very little of his political thinking does not mean he is wrong on GW, nor does it mean he is right either When humans have been tracking weather patterns for less than 200 years, its tough to beleive that the next 100 years can be predicted. I guess Andreas didnt get the memo the Hurricaine season doesnt start for another couple weeks. I am all for conservation, LNT and developing alternative energy sources, not because I think we are changing global climate but because I want my grandchildrens grandchildren to see Yellowstone and I would love for the US to be energy independent. And if plants are the engine that turns carbon dioxide into oxygen, shouldnt we be a little more on the bandwagon to stop rain forest destruction and be planting more and building fewer shopping malls and sururban housing developments where farm land once stood?

I would tell any scout to do research on the subject and let me know what he thinks. Perhaps have a troop meeting billed as the Great Debate, with both sides presented It doesnt matter much what we think, the question is can the youth think for themselves. Oh, yeah, for a twist, tell the two presenters that you are not sure which side they will be arguing for until the coin flip starting the debate so they need to research both sides.

First off I moved this thread, I should have noted it when I moved it next, scoutldr I understand your feelings I think. Since the EBOR was done at the District Level, was there ever any thought of appealing the decision to the Council level? Appeals are always thought of as being from the scout, has there ever been an appeal protesting the awarding of a rank?

Scouts and Scouters, Remember, this thread is on what the BSA should change, discussion/reaction are all topics for more threads

Actually who determines scout spirit is found in the Boy Scout handbook, take a look at the first post in this thread "Scout Spirit... Redux"in this section

I think the BSA should require all contact leaders to be trained prior to participation with youth and that they should be retrained, or at least pass a "refresher" course every 2 years. (BTW, did I mention to be considered trained you have to pass a test given at the end of the training session?) I think every Scouting unit should be reviewed every 3 years to certify they are offering the program as it is described in the literature. The institutional head of the chartering organization should be required to attend a training sesion similar to new leaders essentials and pass a test on what it means to be a Chartering Organization I think the BSA should announce a uniform redesign by asking scouts to send in designs to Boys Life where the top 5-10 designs are presented and the scouts vote for the one they want in time for the 2010 Jamboree. I think the BSA should do away with adult knots, all adults should be seen as equals and we would do well to dump the "knot harvesters". Silver Beaver , Disitrict Award of Merit, etc all gone, its for the kids, not for us.