OldGreyEagle

Beavah, if you read the thread from its' beginning, you will see that I posted the following in my initial post in this thread: "Adult leadership in Scouting is not meant to be passive, so the boys elect what most consider a real zero, what is the Scoutmaster's responsibility? To watch the Troop flounder and possibly lose scouts because of a lack of leadership or is he to meet with the SPL, lay out the positions responsibilities and expectations and then support the SPL along the way. Along the way I would expect frequent performance reviews and goal setting, if the expectations are not met, or the goals not accomplished, the scout is removed from the position, for not fulfilling the job. In the situation that Vinividi details, where was the Troop Leadership? Who was mentoring the Patrol Leader, setting expectations and reviewing his performance? if the members of the patrol didnt want to be scouts, its best to just let them leave then provide a poor model for other scouts. Yes. it can be hard work to train youth to perform to expectations, especially if this is a new experience for them, but it is the committment we made when we signed up." Then there were a few posts made about how some of the Forum members don't use elections and appoint boy leaders. Since I had not mentioned anything about elections being part of the BSA program, I thought it wise to include a post in this thread that elections of the Boy Leadership is the way the program is intended to be run. I did end my second post with the sentence "I wish all units and Scouters well". Well thats what I intended to type, I think my first attempt read "I will all units well". I never intended to denigrate nor chastise anyone, my only intention was and is to assure that in the future, some information starved individual does not read these posts and determine that it must be Ok if boy leadership is appointed by the adults when that is not how its written in the litierature. I never intended to direct Gunny back to the program literature. I stand by my first post as to what I would do in the situation posed. I also stand by my posts explaining the BSA program's use of elections for boy leadership. If I insulted, denigrated, confused or otherwise annoyed anyone, hey I didnt mean it. I wish success to all who are Scouters

All of the BSA literature I have read mentions the boys elect their Pl and SPL. No, there isnt a rule against it. I am not sure why you would want to send a boy to NYLT and learn it's the BSA program to elect PL and SPL. These forums and threads are searched by people who want information, to have a thread about appointing the PL and SPL, and not having someone point out doing so is against the program literature is not right. If troops want to continue their current practices, I wish their program well, I do think the method to be used by the authors of the program should be mentioned.

I just reread my second post on this thread, it was supposd to end with the sentence "I wish all units and scouters well", not "I will all units and scouters well"

However good a method works for a Troop, I feel compelled to tell future readers of these threads that appointing boys to Senior Patrol Leader or Patrol Leader is contrary to the Boy Scout BSA program. Obviously some units have had great success in not holding elections and Kudu reminds us of the historical perspective, but to not have someone point out that not electing patrol leaders and the senior patrol leader is contrary to BSA policy on a Forum that discusses Boy Scouting would be, well, wrong. I wish all units and Scouters well (This message has been edited by a staff member.)

HEY DID YOU KNOW TYPING IN CAPS MEANS YOU ARE SHOUTING? And we are a much more sedate crowd ya'know

Adult leadership in Scouting is not meant to be passive, so the boys elect what most consider a real zero, what is the Scoutmaster's responsibility? To watch the Troop flounder and possibly lose scouts because of a lack of leadership or is he to meet with the SPL, lay out the positions responsibilities and expectations and then support the SPL along the way. Along the way I would expect frequent performance reviews and goal setting, if the expectations are not met, or the goals not accomplished, the scout is removed from the position, for not fulfilling the job. In the situation that Vinividi details, where was the Troop Leadership? Who was mentoring the Patrol Leader, setting expectations and reviewing his performance? if the members of the patrol didnt want to be scouts, its best to just let them leave then provide a poor model for other scouts. Yes. it can be hard work to train youth to perform to expectations, especially if this is a new experience for them, but it is the committment we made when we signed up.

In a speech to the Public, I dont know when or where, I have just always heard this speech referred to as a Speech to the Public, B-P said: "...As a school of character therefore, the Scout movement is non-military, non-sectarian, non-political and non-class. On these lines the movement has come in the space of twelve years to be adopted by every civilized country. The brotherhood spirit has thus grown up automatically. It is forming a personal tie not only between the states of the British Commonwealth, but also between the different foreign counties, it may just supply that soul which is needed to make the form of the League of Nations a living force, such as will render war impossible in the future..." Leave it to a career Military man to want to end war, as he had witnessed first hand its horror and terror. He saw all men comming togehter as brother scouts, unable and unwilling to harm each other in a war. In a way it sounds funny, but all he was saying was give peace a chance, B-P the first Hippie?

I saw that commercial, when I heard she was looking for a song for her campaign, a song by Elton John immediately came to mind as we know that Hillary is nothing if not stone cold sober as a matter of fact

My father worked for Commonwealth Edison for many years in Chicago, he was a lineman back when the guys wore the safety belts and strapped spikes to their boots to climb poles. Even with the high pressure creosote soaked utlity poles, they always circled the pole a few times doing a visual inspection and would "sound" the pole, by rapping on it and listening for the appropriate echo. Bucket trucks ended this practice and extended my father's career. But, the point is, utility poles rot, the creosote prevents this for a very long time, but eventually the pole will rot. If the pole is encased completely in concrete, that time is very long off, if its just planted in the earth, its much sooner, it might not be a bad idea to rap any poles in around in a camp, especially if you have an older utilities worker around who can "listen" with you

To get the red 70's beret, the coolest part of any era's scouting uniform, I would go to Ebay, at the time of this post there were 5 available. Then again, other auction services may have more, but you will have to find them used as they aren't made anymore If you were part of a Venturing Crew, then you could desgin your own uniform and possibly sport a raspberry beret The kind you find in a second hand store... and yes, I am a prince of a fellow

I understand how emotions run high, I just spent a week end with my brothers and father we dont see each other much and each time I do, I understand why. J-dawg, I beleive what F-Scouter was saying was that why didnt the scout with the knife step away from the crowd. Knowing F-Scouter as I do, I am confident he in no way meant that anything you posted was wrong

the issue I have with Camp Crews is very specific to my situation and would like to see how other Councils handle this situation. The Council Office is located in the District where I live. Since the Council in located in this District, the Three camp Crews the COuncil maintains for the three camps are registered in this Distrct. As I am the Assistant Disitrict Commissioner for Venturing, I have been responsible for making sure all Crews recharter on time, have an active program, encourage a youth run program, etc. In the past, having the Camp Crews in this District has cost the District Quality Distrct status because the principles who were to sign the recharter form werent available, off at school. The Advisor and Committee Chair change so often, we cant have them sign the recharter at the end of the summer as it will change by January. There is no earning of recognition awards, there are no regular "meetings" and with the Cenntenial Award its even more of a joke, no one will be earning recognitions, there will not be monthly outings to improve attendance on and how does a commissioner attend non-existent meetings. And oh yes, the camps are not located any where close to me. The one thing I can say is the Camp Crews certainly lead the Councils units in nights camped, but thats about it. How do other Councils handle the Camp crews?

Well, I know I have OFS

To paraphrase Sr. Mary Clarence "it's about putting butts in the pews" or maybe giving a sample of your product to potential consumers. Sort of a try it, you'll like it. Heck, send Mikey, send Millie, after all the mission statment of the BSA is: The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. Doesnt say Cubs, Boy Scouts, Varsity Team Members, Venturers, Sea Scouts or Explorers only (my apologies if I missed anyone) If it makes money, or just breaks even, or even loses a bit and membership goes up as a result then it looks like a winner, if it doesnt, nothing ventured nothing gained. Sounds like a great idea

try http://www.meritbadge.com/files/epalm.pdf

Crews CAN design their own uniform, but they can't borrow from the other BSA programs in doing so. Although I imagine a group of EMO Venturers would look cute in cub scout attire. Why not have the Camp Crew wear grew shorts, they dont have to be the uniform shorts, but just grey ones, or black ones, anything but Boy Scout uniforms. I understand that making comments on uniforming is the quickest way to be accused of being part of the Uniform Police, but as I have said, I am retired from the uniform police and am just Observing Ironies. I observe that if some one comments on uniforms, then one is castigated as all get out about being various things and none complimentary. Make a comment about the way a troop is uniformed and good heavens, the consternation that occurs that you have no business putting your nose in where it doesnt belong, and those leaders know best about their troop, etc. But, there seems to be no lack of comments on "Eagle Mills" and "merit badge mills" and troops that use the dreaded "Troop Method" and those leaders are pretty much decried as needing training or some other unpleasant activity to see the error of their ways. So, commenting on another troop's uniform is bad, but you can comment on the Troops committment to the patrol method, advancement, adult association, et al. Why is uniforming regared so? Is it time to ditch uniforming altogether?

Oh, I realize that the mixing of the boy scout field uniform shirt and boy scout pants won't cause any camp to fail it's inspection and I dont think it should. I do wonder though why if uniforming is so loosely regarded, why it's one of the methods? If camps get to be creative with uniforms, then why cant troops? Why have uniform standards at all? Just rhetorical questions, I have retired from the uniform police and moved on to the Observation of Ironies

I dont know if there is a full moon or what, but you guys know it is against BSA policy to wear the Venturing shirt with Boy Scout pants. Yes I know it's standard for most Camps to do so, so why do we have uniforms anyway?

What the Pope says are guidelines, unless he speaks "ex cathedra" at which point he is infallible on matters of faith and morals. I will let others find out the last time a Pope spoke "ex cathedra". So, pile it on the Cathoics, I saw in the paper a local college theatre deparment was doing a delicious little comedy called "Nunsense", about nuns in a convent. Any idea what would happend if they advertised they were going to put on a production satirizing an Islamic Cleric? Would they even consider it and how long before a Fatwah is issued on the Director, Cast members and anyone associated with it. The Monsignor has taken a stand based on his morals and we are supposed to say that it's wrong? I dont understand but what I think is more appropriate on the thread about civil society

I fly a lot, and I go to a lot of hospitals in my work. Just about every airport I visit, well, the major ones, all have chapels and every hospital I visit has a chapel. These chapels are used by every faith and I dont know of anyone being insulted by any of their design, although I am sure it could/has/might happen. If hospitals and airports can figure this out, cant the BSA? Noting of course the destroyed chapel was in the UK

To be sure, the term LEO is not sarcastic, however, this is the original quote: "Only a LEO would originate the idea that weapon designates that it had been involved in the commission of a crime." Now, lets change the subject of the sentence with other nouns and see if the sentence still makes sense: Only a IDIOT would originate the idea that weapon designates that it had been involved in the commission of a crime. Only a MORON would originate the idea that weapon designates that it had been involved in the commission of a crime. Only a IMBECILE would originate the idea that weapon designates that it had been involved in the commission of a crime. Only a HONEST BRAVE MAN would originate the idea that weapon designates that it had been involved in the commission of a crime. Only a TRUSTWORTHY SCOUT would originate the idea that weapon designates that it had been involved in the commission of a crime. Only a MAN I RESPECT would originate the idea that weapon designates that it had been involved in the commission of a crime. The message seems clear

Leadership in what context?

I am sure they were going about their own dam business

"Only a LEO would originate the idea that weapon designates that it had been involved in the commission of a crime." I have no idea what a LEO is, but I don't think it was compliment taken from the context. So, in that vein thank you for insulting my camp school instructor, someone who you have no idea who he is, what he has done or anything at all, other than a phrase I wrote about him explaining my viewpoint

I wouldnt short circuit yourself, to earn Venturing Silver, you will have to earn a Bronze and the Outdoor Bronze is half way to Ranger so go for them both, it's doable BTW, is your favorite poet ee cummings?