OldGreyEagle

Just an alternative thought: The Mission Statement of the Boy Scouts of America is : The mission of the Boy Scouts of America is to prepare young people to make ethical and moral choices over their lifetimes by instilling in them the values of the Scout Oath and Law. I don't see outdoors listed there at all, its a method. And there is a long time poster here who is fond if saying the methods are not required. Some Troops implement the Uniform method, some don't place a lot of emphasis on it. Some Troops place a good deal of effort in the Patrol Method, and some not so much. Some Troops want their scouts to go outside the Troop to earn merit badges and others want their scouts to only use in troop merit badge counselors. There seems to be a lot of play in the methods so why would the outdoor method be any less likely effected? What is the final measure of an Eagle, a youth who can chop down a tree with one hand while simultaneously lashing together a handy camp gadget with the other OR a youth who can decide for himself the difference between right and wrong and influence other people, to do good ? What do we want our end product to be?

LongHaul, From the BSA website http://www.scouting.org/nav/enter.jsp?s=ba Board of Review Training "...If the Scout is not advancing, the board should certainly give the Scout the opportunity of learning what he needs to do to advance. He should be given a definite time for a subsequent board of review. Finally he should be given information about appeal procedures. In a good troop, having a Scout deferred for advancement by the board of review is unusual. If there is a problem with a Scout, normally he will not be presented to the board of review..." Now I found the above at the National Website, I am not sure if the link will work, but if not search the phrase "Board of Review Training". In the BSA publication "Advancement Committee Guide, Policies and Procedures" you find the following concerning a scout who is not successful at a Board of Review "...If the board decides that the Scout is not ready to advance, the candidate should be informed and told what he has not done satisfactorily. Most Scouts accept responsibility for not completing the requirements properly. The members of the board of review should specify what must be done to rework the candidate's weaknesses and schedule another board of review for him. A follow-up letter must be sent to a Scout who is turned down for rank advancement, confirming the agreements reached on the actions necessary for advancement. Should the Scout disagree with the decision, the appeal procedures should be explained to him..." Both lay out the expectation that the Board of Review will tell the scout what needs to be done and when the scout's next Board of Review is, they also are to explain the appeal process. I think sending the scout a letter is a good idea. It gives the proceedings a solemn note and it puts down on paper what needs to be done. This makes certain both scout and troop are working off the same page Interetingly enough, the final sentence from the BSA website is quite telling, "...If there is a problem with a Scout, normally he will not be presented to the board of review..." which indicates to me the Board of Review is not the place to decide POR effectiveness. I think the best job we can do for the boy is to be sure they know where they stand with the troop, they know if they are doing a good job, because we have told them, they know if improvement is needed because such suggestions are being offered virtually almost all the time. (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

Hunt's comment sparked a thought, so if you don't like it, blame Hunt. A scout never "fails" a Board of Review, if the rank is not given, the scout is told what must be done to obtain the rank, a letter must be sent to the scout confirming the agreements reached on the actions necessary for advancement, so it is not a message of "you don't qualify", its "you will qualify if..." (This message has been edited by OldGreyEagle)

According to the BSA Publication 33088E, Advancement Committee Guide Polcies and Procedures it says on page 39 "...As the Venturer meets the requirements for the Star and Life ranks, a board of review is conducted by the crew or ship committee. The Eagle board of review follows the procedure established by the local council...."

I remember when my dyslexic son was having his his IEP (Individual Educational Program) writtem for 6th grade, there was talk about increasing his reading level 30 percent and comprehension 40 perent or some other percent. The teacher asked if I had any comment, I said I would rather the statement be "can read the back of a "kids" cereal box without having to ask "what's this word" more than 3 times. She clucked her tongue and expressed the thought it was too bad I didnt understand understand objective writing, I countered by saying it was too bad I did. The test's need to be practical applications

OK, I was wrong about the athletic letter thing, in my experience, Varisty letters were given by playing time, then again, it was football and baseball. You either had the playing time in minutes or innnings or you didnt and that was determined by if you played or not. I am glad to see other areas have more standard standards, as it were. I know we both agree Scouting is more more whole person oriented. Of course I realize Star, LIfe and Eagle are more than merit badges and POR's, I was trying to keep variables to a minimum.

This is an interesting topic, I see it different from Beavah, but I wouldn't say that makes either of us wrong. I see Advancement as a Method of Scouting, and I am sure Beavah would say the same. A scout joins a Troop and says I want to be a First Class scout in a year. He looks at the requirements and sets off. He attends events, goes shopping for food, cooks for his Patrol, he learns knots and identifies plants and animals/signs of animals and then when he completes the requirements for each rank, he has a Scoutmaster Conference and Board of Review. He knows when to request a Scoutmaster Conference because he knows the requirements for each rank and has them signed off in his book, or sees them signed off on the wall chart or whatever device the Troop uses to keep track of advancement. So, now that he is First Class the ambitious scout wants to be a Star Scout, he sets off with the POR of Librarian. He earns his merit badges, but does nothing with the Troop Library. He doesnt take any inventory, doesnt keep track of who takes what and generally doesnt care. When he assumed the postion of Librarian, he was told what the duties are and was given the case full of books. At a review one month later, the scout can't account for half the books and is told he needs to straighten things up. At the 2 month mark, no progress has been made and is told to either straighten up the Troop Library or he risks losing his POR, now comes crunch time. After 3 months, the Library is still a shambles, the scout has not done any of the suggested measures to improve and shows no interest in doing so, do you let the scout continue for 1 more month and when he asks for a Scoutmaster conference because he has had the position of Libarian, is he signed off on it because he held the position for 4 months or do you deny him the advancement because he has not fulfilled the duties? He was told at a scoutmaster conference at the 3 month mark or there about he would not be receiving credit for 4 months of a POR because he did not do what was expected and he can continue as Libarian but the clock would be set back at zero time in the position or is there another position that he would like to try? Either way, he does not get his advancement, whether you call this advancement "denied" or advancement "delayed" is of little consequence to the scout, he learns he either performs or he doesnt advance. He has to try. Ranks are awarded because they are earned, not because adults see a scout and "think" they deserve them. This does make ranks different than a Varisty letter for Athletics. While any student can join the Football team as a Freshman, and stay on the team until he graduates, whether or not he receives a Varsity Letter depends on how much talent he has or rather how much talent the coach thinks he has and how much playing time he gets. Any scout who joins a Troop can earn Eagle, he has the requirements and can set off to earn the ranks, he knows what he has to do and with the support of the adults Eagle can be acheived if the scout wants it and is willing to work at it. Fun stuff, aint it?

Give us a few lines and chorus and lets see...

Hey, Whitey handled the rescue scene alright. It was a patrol outing, no adults required and Whitey has warned the kid from being so close to the edge and then lead the rescue, no G2SS problem there. Although, when Troop 1 Hickory gets caught up in the war games, to have one adult alone with the scouts, and he cant even tie a sheep shank, well we all, even Lem Siddons cant be perfect.

then again, you could give them the best marching song of all time chorus): Follow me boys, follow me, When you think you're really beat That's the time to lift your feet, And follow me boys, follow me, Pick'em up, put'em down and follow me, Pick'em up, put'em down pick'em up. Sgt Reily said, There's a fight to win, Follow me boys, follow me, And it won't be done till we all pitch in, Lift your chin with a grin and follow me. (chorus) It's a long long climb, But we've got the will, Follow me boys, follow me, When we reach the top Then it's all down hill, Till you drop don't stop and follow me. So the journey's end Is beyond our sight, Follow me boys, follow me, If we do our best Then we've done alright, Pack your load, hit the road and follow me. (chorus)

If its dishonorable to follow an organization's own rules, then I am dishonorable. I wish all scouts and scouters well.

My father sent me a bunch of literature from the "American Civil Rights Union" soliciting funds for the "Scouting Legal Defense Fund". Anyone know anything about these guys, what they have done, what they do? I could Google them, and will but I want to know what the forum's experience has been

I think we all know there is no GSA, but an GUSA so we dont have to mention it

Venividi I can see what you saying, that if the scout gets enough counseling and feedback during his term of office, that it shouldnt really be a surprise when the scoutmaster says, yes you have been hisotrian for 6 months, but you didnt do anything and the scout says I guess I didnt, there should be no surprise when the scoutmaster says ok, lets see how you do at quartermaster... That could work, but, if the scout is savvy, he knows he was in the position for 6 months and according to the rules, he compelted his POR because he was never remvoed. If the scout appeals and it gets to District where I am on the Advancement COmmittee for the Disitrct, the scout is getting credit for his POR, not because he did anything, but because the Troop allowed him to be in that postion for 6 months and according to the rules, thats all it takes. We cant publish rules and then ignore them. The approach you suggest has a lot of merit

Venividi, I understand what you mean. In the scenario you describe the Scoutmaster put forth the expectations, after the first campout and inactivity by the scout, the scoutmaster should be sure the scout understands what the duties are. That those duties still exist even if the scout does not attend the event, he can make arrangemens with a scout who is going to take the pictures and help the scout with a writeup of the event. After the second campout and no activity it may be time to take a more stern approach, tell the scout that the POR says what he has to do and it needs to be done. The scoutmaster explains if it happens again, the scout is in danger of losing his POR, if it does happen again, then the scoutmaster needs to evaluate the situation, is the scout not understanding or just not doing. If not understanding, what needs to be done to get the required level of understanding, if just inactive, then its time to remove him from the position. If the scout is judged to be misunderstanding, once more time the expectations are explained and if nothing occures, the scout is removed as his performance results in missed opportunities for pictures and the archives of the troop. His inactivity effects everyone. I have to say the reluctance to remove scouts from PORs puzzles me. In the past when posters have commented on requiring uniforms at BORs or the scout doesnt pass, or retests at Scoutmaster's COnferences, of a defined percentage level of participation there are plenty who agree with such measures, although none is in the program. But when the BSA says you can effect advancement for non-participation in the scouts POR, then its seen as draconian? The scoutmaster needs to be on top of the situation and know who is doing what and who isnt, we are teaching consequences of action or inaction and people object to it? I am missing something here

I think the "media" whomever they are, like to tag any entity with a tag, how many people in the Chicagoland area remember serial murderer John Wayne Gacy, who was forever identified in the newspapers as John Wayne Gacy, former Clown, and often shown in that picture with Nancy Regan. Of course the picture was taken long before Gacy had been arrested, but that didnt stop the "media" from trotting that picture out as many times as possible. I think it was John Lennon or it may have been Paul McCartney or Ringo or George Harrison, I dont for sure, who commented in an interview that no matter what they did, they would always be an Ex-Beatle. If Paul found the cure for cancer tomorrow, the headline would read "Ex-Beatle Paul finds Cure for Cancer" So the BSA is tagged as discriminating against Atheists and Gays, at least they have it right, we do discriminate against Atheists and Gays, just as Augusta National discriminates against women. They make no bones about, its legal and so is the postion that the BSA takes. Now, whether or not its the right choice is another matter, legal and right do not equal each other. Now if the media said the BSA espoused violence towards gays or Atheists, then we could get up in arms, but this time, they actually got it right

Veronica and Betty were tried for witchcraft, suspicions were aroused during turn of the century parties when it was noted either Veronica or Betty had been Prom or Homecomming Queen or runnerup at Riverdale High since 1942. Charges were dropped when "Pop" Tate admitted he had been "doctoring" the sodas and sundaes he served them with steroids, HGH and other chemical additives that would make Floyd Landis jealous because he wanted to keep the gang young forever. He fled the country and is rumored to be alive and well in Brazil and working for the international subsidiary of BALCO. Gunny, don't worry about it, it's not hijacking unless I say it's hijacking and in which case, it's good to be the king, or moderator unless someone wants to assasinate me in which case it would suck to the the king, or moderator, which ever the case may be.

Actually I thought regicide is what put Archie and Jug Head away in Sing Sing for a very long time. As I remember Jug Heads testimony at trial, the attorney referred to him many times as Mr Head. The most descriptive part was the explanation of Jug Head's car, it had a four on the floor and a fifth under the seat

I am not sure I would put Adults in a Board of Review as an Adult Run Element. With adult association as a method of scouting, I have always thought Boards of Review and the Eagle Board of Review to be stars of the Adult Association method. The Board of Review is when the Committee gets to do some quality control on the program (not sure why we do quality control, it's like it would be bad to have quality rampant). The committee gets to talk with troop members and have an opportunity to find out how the scout perceives things.

... Don't it always seem to go That you don't know what you've got till it's gone... Joni Mitchell

The neighborhood I grew up in was bounded on one side by a creek, the back by a county forest preserve and the other side by a major county road that had no access to the neighborhood. In the afternoon we would play baseball, well, a verison of it, with a limted pool of "talent" "pitchers hands out" was the rule of the day as was most likely right field out or left field out, you got to call it when you came up to bat. Pitching was overhand with an arc as no one had catchers equipment and the pitcher was expected to cover home plate during a play. The field was at the entrance to the neighborhood and games would go until Rick saw his dad's car and then things would break up as that meant it was time to go home for dinner. Dinner may have been the first time any of us had been home since breakfast, perhaps catching a PB&J sandwhich somewhere along the line. After a few hours of playing ball perhaps a drink was in order and off to the County Park we would go, Biking on a path through the woods. Of course we would pass by everyones house on the way to the path and the pump that was our destination was about 1 mile in, but when we got there and pumped, the water was the best tastingest, coldest and most refreshing water I have ever known. In the fall we played football, tackle no equipment, it was rough getting tackled on the infield. In the winter it was hockey on the creek. Almost all of the Moms stayed at home and you could be sure of a friendly face at about 75% of any home as you had visited there many times. This was the beginning of suburban sprawl. The men just back from the war were anxious to start lives and families. COmmunties sprang out of farmers fields and just about every household had the same story, dad had been in the Army, Marines, Navy, etc and they wanted to enjoy life. No one got out of line, well except for the neighboorhood bully, because we knew if we did something wrong, not only would mrs smith give us the back of her hand, so would dad when he found out what mrs smith had to do. I think at one time you could walk down the street and each house averaged 3-4 kids, one always about your age who you knew because you were at his/her birthday party and they at yours. We have lost that, neighborhoods are much more heterogenous now. You have older retired people living next to newlyweds next to a family of teenagers. For a child to find an appropriate aged playmate, you may have to go three-four blocks or more. Did our children lose the right to roam, or did the composition of neighborhoods change so its not as easy anymore? I think 24 hour News Channels help the hysteria. I am sure from 1960-1970 many children were abducted or murdered, but unless it was local, I wouldnt have known it. Now, a girl disappears from a Wal-mart in Pasadena and the world knows about it in 3 hours along with the boy in Arlington, Texas. I think there is an increased awareness of child abduction, I am not sure there has been an increase of child abductions

As long as we keep it on a historical and theoretical plane, fine. I just dont want any 10-13 year olds to read this and figure that because Mr. Teacher wont let me sit next to Sally, I can kill him because he deprived me of my rights. Because that is wrong.

Advocating death for anyone is hardly scoutlike, please be careful with this discussion

I am not advocating removing a scout from his position of responsibility unless a lot of work has gone into the scout. I am talking about learning about consequnces of actions. If the scout is working at full capacity, I would never think about remving them, but if he doesnt show up, doesnt make arrangements for his abscences and doesnt care, I dont see why we should either. This is the end point, lots of effort goes in before this type of move is made

Venividi, I think I see the point of confusion, or I don't but that's ok as well. I am talking about Positions of Responsibility, such as Senior Patrol Leader, Asst. Senior Patrol Leader, Quartermaster, etc., all those positions listed in the book as qualifying a scout for advancement, if he completes his term successfully. Star rank, is just that, a rank. It is a rank that was earned through Troop approval by the scout fulfilling the Star Scout requirements. Once a rank is earned, I see it like a merit badge, once given, that's it, it doesnt get taken away. Yes, there are those cases when National takes away an Eagle but we are talking everyday life, not the rare exception. As a Star scout if he wants to Advance to Life, he has to successfully complete a Position of Responsibility. He accepts the postion, the position is explained to him and what needs to be done. His progress is followed, monitored, praised and if he doesnt do as expected, he is asked why, what can be done to make it a positive, if it can't, and the scout shows no interest in improving, then he is removed. But not at a scoutmaster "advancement" conference. The scout knows he is in danger of losing his position because he has been counseled numerous times on what needs to happen. Perhaps various people have discussed what he needs to do to improve, but in the end, if he is removed, its because he didnt perform, and its not a surprise to him or his parents. He may no longer be the Troop Quartermaster or whatever, but he is still a Star Scout